08-07-2002 07:48									#92
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quote: but no rights for those who wish to protest something, apparently

Is the University private or public? Is it on university grounds? Can people have sex or walk around naked on university grounds to protest sexual repression of the falsehood of clothedness? No. That's tresspassing rights too, isn't it?

	08-07-2002 07:49									#93
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quote: posting a picture of a dead child in a public place is a proper form of protest

I disagree, it is disrespectful to the child and to the child's family.

Not agreeing with the concept that an unborn phoetus us a child, but if we assume it is, then it would be disrespectful.

	08-07-2002 07:49									#94
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quote: but you are defining lack of knowledge, wishful thinking and religious dogma why should you be able to say that I can not say any of my speech because you disagree with it (think it is one of the three above) when I think that it is not one of the three above it is not your right, in fact it is against my rights, for you to say what is reasonable speech for me based upon something as nebuluous as speech that is wrong based upon lack of knowledge, wishful thinking, and religious dogma you have no right to define what those are, because I disagree with you about what those are and limiting my speech based upon those who be tyrrany of the extreme if people who thought as you did controlled the nation, I would have no other choice but to take part in a violent aprising against you (and I prefer to change things in a democratic manner)

'fetuses are people because babies can think from the moment of conception' = lack of knowledge

'fetuses are people because they look like tiny people' = wishful thinking (i.e. factually correct but illogically concluded)

'fetuses are people because I read so in an old book' = religious dogma.


Much like:
'blacks are inferior because they have smaller brains than whites' = lack of knowledge

'blacks are inferior because many of them like watermelon' = wishful thinking

'blacks are inferior because of that Ham did to Noah' = religious dogma.


But as I said before, as long as you defend hate speech, I understand your view point but I don't agree.

	08-07-2002 08:00									#95
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It must really take some effort to claim that people who are trying to save the unborn are practicing "hate speech". Orwell was right I guess.

	08-07-2002 08:07									#96
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Lincoln, both are trying to make the lives of others worse beause of their own convictions.

It is not about the unborn. It is only a piece of tissue. It is about the mother who would be worced to carry out the pregnancy.

	08-07-2002 08:28									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln It must really take some effort to claim that people who are trying to save the unborn are practicing "hate speech". Orwell was right I guess.

If you consider the embryo a human, then it's people trying to prevent a murder.

If you consider the embryo NOT being a human, then it's people trying to dictate their will on others.


Fact is, embryo is not a human. So, anti-abortion manifestation is one group trying to enforce its dogmatic views on another group. Hence it's hate speech.

If you are able to PROVE that embryo is human, then it would no longer be hate speech.
But there is a 17-pages long thread about it, and guess what ? Por-life are biting the dust in it, because they can present not any argument but blind faith or whishful thinking.

Enforcing faith or wishful thinking on others IS dictatorship.

	08-07-2002 08:36									#98
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I certainly agree that the anti-abortion group has every right to do this (BTW, it was at my campus last year). If it disturbs you so much to look at an aborted fetus to the extent that you want to ban it in a "free speech" zone, you have no business believing what you believe.

	08-07-2002 08:36									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The baby I saw could easily fit in a shoe box but we better let Dr Strangelove decide. Is there a doctor in the house??

The infant is obviously quite premature. I can't tell if it's living or dead. If it's living then I don't know how you would go about arranging such a photograph, but I suppose if the parents, doctor and hospital legal staff were all in agreement it could happen.

	08-07-2002 08:41									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Many operations are filmed for training purposes. This one especially because it was a unique operation.

If it was filmed for training purposes then it would be a still from a video or a colour photo.

The lighting and the quality of the black and white film strongly suggests a staged photo.

It's probably not even an abortion, but rather a c-section. I may be mistaken, but I doubt there would be a need to cut the mother's stomach for an abortion.

All of this suggests the photo is being used as a lie.

	08-07-2002 08:47									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil If you consider the embryo a human, then it's people trying to prevent a murder. If you consider the embryo NOT being a human, then it's people trying to dictate their will on others. Fact is, embryo is not a human. So, anti-abortion manifestation is one group trying to enforce its dogmatic views on another group. Hence it's hate speech. If you are able to PROVE that embryo is human, then it would no longer be hate speech. But there is a 17-pages long thread about it, and guess what ? Por-life are biting the dust in it, because they can present not any argument but blind faith or whishful thinking. Enforcing faith or wishful thinking on others IS dictatorship.

hey man

this is about free speech

can I say that the embryo (or Fetus in the case of this argumetn because all the pictures are of fetuses) is a human

apparently you and CyberGnu say I cannot use pictures to make this statement (once more,t his is dealing with Fetuses which you claim you are prolife in regards to)

how is me making my argument hate speech

you are trying to take away my rights and the rights of everyone else



Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 08:52									#102
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Our positions could thus be summed up as this: BTW, I was planning to have a little exhibit here at Caltech called 'There are some fine-looking 14 year olds out there, let's legalize pedofilia NOW'. I have some pictures I found on an undisclosed website, that clearly shows how attractive 14 year olds can be.

EEEWWWWW! Cybergnu's a pedophile! I knew there was something fishy going on with our cloven-hoofed friend!

	08-07-2002 08:57									#103
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Lincoln, 'imposing a view' would be to, for example, segregate schools or force a women to carry through with a pregnancy against her will.

I hate to burst your bubble 'gnu, but the right to free speech does actually dictate that groups like the KKK and the Nazis be permitted to march on public streets. Do you just not follow the news very often or were you intentionally ignoring reality?

	08-07-2002 09:04									#104
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Ramo, to paraphrase the other abortion thread, people who can't stand the sight of blood shouldn't undergo operations? My brother is screwed...

I still claim what I didn in the beginning: since it is not a logical argument, it should be considered art. A university has no obligation to allow any kind of art on its campus.

	08-07-2002 09:08									#105
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Dr, KKK is allowed to stage rallies, but AFAIK, they are not allowed to hold hate-speeches.


Jon, use as many pictures as you want. But to be protected free speech, the pictures should have some connection to the issue. Using an unrelated picture for shock value is not valid.

	08-07-2002 09:11									#106
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Dr, ackording to the law I think I am a pedophile, cause I thought that Britney Spear was hot when she was 17...

(this is one of my pet peeves... I never understood how thinking 17 year olds can be hot equates with pedohilia...But that is a different story)

	08-07-2002 09:12									#107
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Jon, question for you: what is your view on public pornography laws?

	08-07-2002 09:13									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller hey man this is about free speech can I say that the embryo (or Fetus in the case of this argumetn because all the pictures are of fetuses) is a human apparently you and CyberGnu say I cannot use pictures to make this statement (once more,t his is dealing with Fetuses which you claim you are prolife in regards to) how is me making my argument hate speech you are trying to take away my rights and the rights of everyone else Jon Miller

You misunderstood me.
I say that, as anti-abortion people has no claim to support their views but wishful thinking and dogma, they are using hate speech.

The fact that hate speech is tolerated or not depends on the law of your state.

	08-07-2002 09:18									#109
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CyberGNU, the free speech zone is probably a fairly large area (at least it was where they had the demonstration at UT). If you really want to, you can avoid looking at it if you have a strong aversion to bloody pictures.

Let's make the demonstration into something less contraversial, say, pictures from Nazi massacres. How would you deal with people who want to ban these demonstrations because they "don't like the sight of blood?"

As far as I'm concerned, this kind of bullshit isn't about what people don't want to see, but what people don't want others to see.

	08-07-2002 09:29									#110
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Ramo, I have nothing against homosexuality, but I would prefer not to have frescos of gay men giving each other blowjobs on the way to work. The proper venue for that is an art exhibit, or possibly california. Wait, I live in california. Damn. Oh well.

You get my drift, right?

	08-07-2002 09:37									#111
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu It is an analogous protest, where I protest the illegal nature of an act with an argument that has nothing to do with the issue.

I don't see how you can claim that the protest (displaying pictures of aborted fetuses) has nothing to do with the issue at hand when you take into acount your statements referencing fur industry protests in this thread.

PS I'd still like someone to answer my earlier question. The new university policy seems like a transparent end run around the court order.

	08-07-2002 09:38									#112
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Avoiding an event is not the same as having the government stifiling it...

	08-07-2002 10:47									#113
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Dino, the fur protestors are protesting the unethical treatment of animals. This is illustrated with pictures showing said treatment. (There are of course protestors who protest the use of animals for anything, including food. I'm not referring to them).

But the anti-abortionists are protesting the practice of abortion. What does the pictures illustrate? That removing really revolting-looking tissue is immoral? That because the tissue looks human, abortion is wrong? Neither of these statements are logical, and the use of pictures can not be contrued as anything but revolting pictures used for shock value, just as pictures of a concentration camp would be... Which takes it from political speech to art.

	08-07-2002 10:54									#114
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Ramo, saying 'you can't do that on school property' is not the same as saying 'you can't do that period'. They are more than welcome to rent a gallery and display their posters for people who derive pleasure from looking at tissue samples...

If we should force a school to allow the display of disturbing pictures for no other purpose than shock value, can I force the school to allow me to take a dump on the side walk? How about pictures of bestiality? Necrophilia? And what about placement? Could I put a wide screen TV showing vivisection videos in the school cafeteria? Or some coprofage sex tapes, would go great with that chocolate pudding.

	08-07-2002 10:57									#115
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu But the anti-abortionists are protesting the practice of abortion. What does the pictures illustrate?

The murder of what they consider to be human beings. I don't particularly care to debate the validity, or lack thereof, of thier belief as this isn't the thread to do that in.

I also don't get the distinction you are drawing between art and political speech in this instance because (IIRC) it does not appear anywhere in either the 1st amendment or the relevent case law.

	08-07-2002 11:02									#116
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The important part is that these areas are "free speech zones." I don't see how the universities are justified in censoring certain demonstrations in these zones just because the posters they put up aren't pretty...

	08-07-2002 11:09									#117
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So if I protest the fur industry I could use pictures of a concentration camp because I consider jews animals? (Siro, don't worry. Rhethorical point only).

Or pictures of aborted fetuses, because humans are animals too?

Or how about those coprofage tapes, since animals to defecate...

Tenous or even spurious links as those are not links in the real sense...

quote: I also don't get the distinction you are drawing between art and political speech in this instance because (IIRC) it does not appear anywhere in either the 1st amendment or the relevent case law.

The law does allow the prohibition of a art or commercial display on public property. The state of Maine prohibits billboards along the state highways, as it lessens the beaty of the view. IIRC, California prohibited the reknown artist Jorge to pull one of his mastodont stunts (like placing pink umbrellas along a ten miles stretch of highway). Grafitti is prohibited pretty much everywhere.

	08-07-2002 11:14									#118
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Ramo: ?

The university has said the group can put up their pictures in one of the designated 'free speech zones'. I think the group should stop whining and be happy the university is humoring them at all...

	08-07-2002 11:20									#119
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quote: The university has said the group can put up their pictures in one of the designated 'free speech zones'. I think the group should stop whining and be happy the university is humoring them at all...

That's what I get for not reading the article, I suppose.

In that case, I have no problems whatsover with the University's decision. It's totally impractical if students are able to put all the crap they want anywhere in campus.

I assumed that the University prevented the group from placing the demonstration in the free speech zones...

	08-07-2002 12:03									#120
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Does anybody else find the term "free speech zones" a ludicrous phrasing?