08-07-2002 07:02									#61
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What exactly is "imposing a view"? Presenting an opposing opinion?

	08-07-2002 07:03									#62
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So it is dictatorship to outlaw hate speech?

Well, I guess that goes well with the outcome of the last election, right?

	08-07-2002 07:04									#63
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Are people not allowed to use pictures in protests?

	08-07-2002 07:04									#64
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but emotional arguments are considered a valid form of argument

the pictures fall under that category

it has been used, and is continued to be used

we are a visual people, we use pictures to get our points across (and now more than ever since hardly anyone reads anymore)

the argument is not abortion is wrong because dead tissue is gross

it is , abortion must be stopped because it is killing people

it creates a since of reality of the thing which is not gotten from words

it plays to peoples emotions, but every argument that has had even the slightest chance of succeeding has done that

once more, speech shold not be limited because you or anyone else disagrees with the message

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:05									#65
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Lincoln, 'imposing a view' would be to, for example, segregate schools or force a women to carry through with a pregnancy against her will.

	08-07-2002 07:05									#66
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu So it is dictatorship to outlaw hate speech? Well, I guess that goes well with the outcome of the last election, right?

It is dictatorship to force your views on others and to not allow them the right to express themselves

Jon Miller
the democratic communist

	08-07-2002 07:06									#67
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Lincoln, 'imposing a view' would be to, for example, segregate schools or force a women to carry through with a pregnancy against her will.

or ending a life

or not allowing people to speak in a public forum

Jon Miller
(the last is what this is an example of here)

	08-07-2002 07:07									#68
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Well then these people are not imposing their views then. They are simply presenting them in picture form in the marketplace of ideas.

	08-07-2002 07:07									#69
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quote: Are people not allowed to use pictures in protests?

As long as the pictures have something to do with the subject, I don't mind.

But as I said, using pictures of concentration camps to protest the fur industry would not be a political protest... It would be art.

	08-07-2002 07:08									#70
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but they do have something to do with the subject

they are pictures of the dead

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:08									#71
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quote: It is dictatorship to force your views on others and to not allow them the right to express themselves

So you consider hate-speech laws fascist?

	08-07-2002 07:09									#72
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to some extant (and arguably the extant they are now), yes

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:10									#73
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quote: but emotional arguments are considered a valid form of argument the pictures fall under that category it has been used, and is continued to be used we are a visual people, we use pictures to get our points across (and now more than ever since hardly anyone reads anymore) the argument is not abortion is wrong because dead tissue is gross it is , abortion must be stopped because it is killing people it creates a since of reality of the thing which is not gotten from words it plays to peoples emotions, but every argument that has had even the slightest chance of succeeding has done that

So your argument is that people are idiots, and we therefore need to tailor the arguments to fit them?

And you are defending this?

	08-07-2002 07:10									#74
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu As long as the pictures have something to do with the subject, I don't mind. But as I said, using pictures of concentration camps to protest the fur industry would not be a political protest... It would be art.

they have jsut as much to do with the subject

as a picture of a dead jew in a concentration camp has to do with the holocaust

it is saying, this is more than just numbers, this is real

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:10									#75
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu But as I said, using pictures of concentration camps to protest the fur industry would not be a political protest... It would be art.

What does that have to do with the subject at hand?

	08-07-2002 07:12									#76
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu So your argument is that people are idiots, and we therefore need to tailor the arguments to fit them? And you are defending this?

I am defending the right to have your arguments take whatever form you wish

and to tailor them however you wish

if we had a much more intellectual society, arguments would be fashioned for them

we do not, so arguments are fashioned the way they are

this is not just for the pro-lifers, but everyone else who has an oppinion to voice does this as well

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:13									#77
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quote: or ending a life

What relevance does this have?

quote: or not allowing people to speak in a public forum

Well, as long as you agree that hate speech should be allowed right next to it, at least your view is consistent. I don't agree with it, but I see your point.

	08-07-2002 07:16									#78
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I don't see how this is hate speech

but yes, the US is founded on the principles of free speech, once that is removed, there will be tyranny

(BTW, you have not even stated that it was hate speech before, are you suddenly changing arguments because you loast the last one?)

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:19									#79
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Our positions could thus be summed up as this:

I only consider an opinion based in reality a 'political opinion'.

You consider any opinion a 'political opinion', no matter how outrageous. correct?


BTW, I was planning to have a little exhibit here at Caltech called 'There are some fine-looking 14 year olds out there, let's legalize pedofilia NOW'. I have some pictures I found on an undisclosed website, that clearly shows how attractive 14 year olds can be.

In this display, I will carefully omit any mention of the real issue about pedofilia (that a 14 year old is not mature enough to consent, rendering pedofilia non-consentual), hoping for the red neck vote.

Could you contribute a dollar or two to my legal fees?

	08-07-2002 07:23									#80
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Cyber: It's impolite to bludgeon people with red herrings.

	08-07-2002 07:25									#81
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so you are saying that anything that agrees with your notions of reality, ie everything that you agree with, can be presented, everything that does not agree with your notions of reality, what you do not agree with, must be banned

do you see how youa re being tyrannical here?

and yes, the exhibit would be legal (and should be presented if put through the proper channels)

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:25									#82
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as long as what was hown on the exhibit was legal, I should add

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:29									#83
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The plain fact is that they are showing the product of abortion. They are protesting abortion. They are protected under the first amendment.

	08-07-2002 07:30									#84
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Jon, it is equivalent to hate speech. see my 07-07-2002 20:57 post.

Regarding 'changing my views', I assumed that none of us had issues with forbidding hate speech. I see I was wrong about that.

Furthermore, while imposing your view that abortion is wrong based on lack of knowledge, wishful thinking or religious dogma would be illegal, arguing the science isn't. Much like the sentence 'black people have a higher potential of becoming long distance runners because their muscle tissue is shaped diffrently fran whites' isn't racist, while 'black people run faster because they have to chase the white peoples buses each morning' is.

So we are back to square one. Feel free to argue abortion, just stick to revelant issues.

	08-07-2002 07:33									#85
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Dino, do you mean a strawman? A red herring is a false clue...

But is not a strawman. It is an analogous protest, where I protest the illegal nature of an act with an argument that has nothing to do with the issue.

	08-07-2002 07:35									#86
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Rights for Cancer Clumps!

Rights for little toes!

	08-07-2002 07:36									#87
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quote: so you are saying that anything that agrees with your notions of reality, ie everything that you agree with, can be presented, everything that does not agree with your notions of reality, what you do not agree with, must be banned do you see how youa re being tyrannical here?

*sigh*

you aren't reading what I'm writing, apparently. Feel free to argue that the fetus is a human being, but base it on logical reasoning.

	08-07-2002 07:36									#88
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but you are defining lack of knowledge, wishful thinking and religious dogma

why should you be able to say that I can not say any of my speech because you disagree with it (think it is one of the three above) when I think that it is not one of the three above

it is not your right, in fact it is against my rights, for you to say what is reasonable speech for me based upon something as nebuluous as speech that is wrong based upon lack of knowledge, wishful thinking, and religious dogma

you have no right to define what those are, because I disagree with you about what those are

and limiting my speech based upon those who be tyrrany of the extreme

if people who thought as you did controlled the nation, I would have no other choice but to take part in a violent aprising against you (and I prefer to change things in a democratic manner)

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:37									#89
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Rights for Cancer Clumps! Rights for little toes!

but no rights for those who wish to protest something, apparently

Jon Miller

	08-07-2002 07:38									#90
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu *sigh* you aren't reading what I'm writing, apparently. Feel free to argue that the fetus is a human being, but base it on logical reasoning.

but arguments and protests use more than jsut words, they use pcitures and emotions also

as such, posting a picture of a dead child in a public place is a proper form of protest

Jon Miller