08-07-2002 12:10									#121
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Abortion is legal.

That said no woman ever wants to be found herself in a position to have to make an abortion.

The psychological violence some of the anti-abortion people exert on them is revolting.

Luckily no such issues or controversies exist in Greece.

Abortion is legal. The decision rests with the woman.

IMO this is the mosty humane choice and a duty to a society it wants to call itself civilized.

	08-07-2002 12:15									#122
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Plus it is a waste of time and energy from those anti-abortion people (some of them fanatics by the purest form of the word as I see)

Focus should be given on contraseptive means IMO.

	08-07-2002 12:36									#123
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Abortion could be reduced through education and access to birth control methods for women and, increasingly, men. Such a reasonable approach takes the wind out of too many sails, though, so the divergent views on abortion won't be going away anytime soon.

**shrug** Sometimes folks of all stripes have to give a little to gain a lot down the road. I believe the issue of abortion falls under this aegis.

Gatekeeper

	08-07-2002 12:43									#124
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But Gateie, the same people who protest abortion are also the same sickos who lobby for 'abstention is the only birth control there is'...

	08-07-2002 13:03									#125
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CyberGnu:

Abstinence should be a *part* of any sex education that males and females receive. But they should also be made aware of the variety of other approaches to birth control that don't require abortion.

The sticky questions, of course, are just *when* these other aspects of birth control — such as condoms, the pill and whatnot — should be introduced into the educational curriculum. At what grade level do you begin talking about that sort of stuff? Sixth grade? Seventh? Ninth? Do you start girls out a year earlier than boys, because girls do begin to sexually mature before boys?

There's no question that all these aspects need to be taught, but it's a matter of timing that even I don't have down pat.

Gatekeeper

	08-07-2002 13:59									#126
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Gatekeeper, sure, I don't mind teaching it. I confess that I don't know why one would teach it, as it seems quite self-evident...

As to when, it is a good question. Teaching the girls a year in advance might not be a bad thing, not least because teaching the girls in a separate class should be beneficial at an age when boys are most likely to giggle their way through a class with words such as penis and condom.

There are some studies on the subject, where they found that girls are sexually active as early as sixth grade.. So fifth grade should be a good age, with refresher courses every two years or so...

	08-07-2002 16:29									#127
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While I think that those pro-life guys are pretty much nuts, I wouldn't prohibit them from stating their opinion in a public place, as a university is ought to be, unless they disturb the academic life, by continuously singing loud for example. Free Speech is valuable and should not be srestricted only because some nuts guys are talking or showing fotos. That would be censorship

	08-07-2002 16:36									#128
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Their entire mentality is ***ked up... thousands die each year on the highways, yet Pro-Lifers are often conservatives that oppose safer, more fuel efficient vehicles. Thousands die by gunshot, yet Pro-Lifers are often conservatives that oppose any restrictions on guns. Millions die around the world of hunger and disease, yet Pro-Lifers are often conservatives that oppose the money we give to other countries in the form of humanitarian aid. The point is, they are hypocrits. They don't care about saving human lives, because if they did, they'd support causes that can do more good. Instead they want to make illegal something that few of them understand because of their belief in a God who undoubtedly wouldn't classify abortion as 'murder', that is, if he existed in the first place.

	08-07-2002 17:01									#129
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Wernazuma, the point is that showing pictures without any connection to the issue is not exercising free speech, it is at best displaying art.

	08-07-2002 17:01									#130
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Sava,

	08-07-2002 17:11									#131
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Thank you Gnu... don't listen to Jon Miller, his sig is wrong

	08-07-2002 17:44									#132
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu So if I protest the fur industry I could use pictures of a concentration camp because I consider jews animals?

Your views on the state of jews or any of the other strawmen you brought along don't have anything to do with the fur industry. Perhaps you could explain the link to me in order for us to have a meaningful conversation on this analogy

Your examples of the limits on where art can or can not be displayed have nothing to do with the distinction you are making in this case between political protest and an artistic display.

	08-07-2002 17:47									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai If it was filmed for training purposes then it would be a still from a video or a colour photo. The lighting and the quality of the black and white film strongly suggests a staged photo. It's probably not even an abortion, but rather a c-section. I may be mistaken, but I doubt there would be a need to cut the mother's stomach for an abortion. All of this suggests the photo is being used as a lie.

The film was authentic (the second picture of the baby holding the surgeons finger). It was even published in USA Today. The operation involved a baby that had some type of spinal deformation. This was the first time that such an operation was performed in the womb. It is a real picture of a real operation.

Dan,

Yes, I think the concept of "free speech" zones is nuts but the idea began when nutty hippies started taking over universities in the 1960's demanding the right to self rule, free drugs, etc.. The anti-war demonstrations also got way out of hand.

Sava,

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you are steriotyping people? I am not active in the pro-life movement but I know several people who are and they simply do not fit your steriotype.

	08-07-2002 17:50									#134
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Aren't there also obscenity laws to consider? I feel that it is just as obscene (or possibly even more so) to show an aborted fetus as it is to show hard-core sex photos in a public place.

	08-07-2002 17:57									#135
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Aren't there also obscenity laws to consider?

Not really.

	08-07-2002 17:57									#136
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Why would showing "tissue" be obscene?

	08-07-2002 18:02									#137
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I would consider it obscene to show, for instance, a graphic picture of a severed hand in a public place. I find myself physically revolted by graphic depictions of human tissue (which a fetus is, BTW) which has died.

	08-07-2002 18:07									#138
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I find the following operation that is performed on a healthy viable infant to be obscene. Should I be able to protest this?

	08-07-2002 18:31									#139
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Protest all you want Lincoln. Ignore the fact that said operation is almost never performed on a "healthy, viable" fetus, and if so is invariably done out of concern for the mother's health.

Anyway, back to the main question of thread, I'm pretty disgusted (though not in the least bit surprised) that this is even a debate. Yes, of course they should be allowed to protest. Christ on a bicycle, this is America! They should absolutely, without equivocation nor exception, be allowed to protest on public property.

It's bullshit like this that gives liberals a bad name, and I am fed up with it.

	08-07-2002 20:18									#140
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I HAVE A SOLUTION TO THE ABORTION ARGUMENT:

KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED YOU FREAKING SLUT AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM!




That is all .

Next I plan to go on to solve the worlds power needs, and end violence in the middle east.....

	08-07-2002 20:24									#141
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Dr, ackording to the law I think I am a pedophile, cause I thought that Britney Spear was hot when she was 17... (this is one of my pet peeves... I never understood how thinking 17 year olds can be hot equates with pedohilia...But that is a different story)

Strictly speaking pedophilia applies only to the pre- and peri- pubertal. Fourteen year olds are at the upper threshold.

	08-07-2002 21:42									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I HAVE A SOLUTION TO THE ABORTION ARGUMENT: KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED YOU FREAKING SLUT AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM!

I hope this was a joke ?

	08-07-2002 21:50									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I find the following operation that is performed on a healthy viable infant to be obscene. Should I be able to protest this?

An operation like that should never happen, as it's applied on a baby that has already got a brain, a mind and an ability to feel (ie : a human person).

On the other hand, the way the text is formulated is also disgusting in its own way. It reminds me the propaganda of the 40's, with "the Jew" or "the Bolchevik". Here we have "the abortionist".
That can be clearly considered as "hate speech".

	09-07-2002 02:14									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Protest all you want Lincoln. Ignore the fact that said operation is almost never performed on a "healthy, viable" fetus, and if so is invariably done out of concern for the mother's health. Anyway, back to the main question of thread, I'm pretty disgusted (though not in the least bit surprised) that this is even a debate. Yes, of course they should be allowed to protest. Christ on a bicycle, this is America! They should absolutely, without equivocation nor exception, be allowed to protest on public property. It's bullshit like this that gives liberals a bad name, and I am fed up with it.

Do you have figures to back up your claim that this procedure is seldom performed to abort healthy babies? I think not. This type of operation would generally be performed in the last half of pregnancy, other methods are used to abort a baby before then. There are a number of reasons why it might be desireable to remove a fetus at that time. Pre-eclampsia, renal failure, maternal valvular heart disease, might all necessitate the termination of a pregnancy at that time. The procedures used to deliver a live baby at that time are just as safe for the mother as those used to perform an abortion.

	09-07-2002 02:18									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil On the other hand, the way the text is formulated is also disgusting in its own way. It reminds me the propaganda of the 40's, with "the Jew" or "the Bolchevik". Here we have "the abortionist". That can be clearly considered as "hate speech".

Huh? The captions under the drawings seem to be simple unemotional description to me. I see no problem with calling an abortionist an abortionist.

	09-07-2002 02:46									#146
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This all reminds me of "Citizen Ruth"

Other than that, of course they should be allowed to protest. America claims to be a democracy, right?

But I think it´s sad that people (ie religious right-wing nuts) have such a double standard. They question the womans right to her own body when more often than not they are rabid defenders of the individuals rights in other fields.

And even more scaring is the fact that these people more often than not defend the death penalty...

Pro-Life my ass

	09-07-2002 03:09									#147
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Kamrat X the question is does that dna glob have a right to life. Does it have the right to form it's own opinions given the chance to mature.

As far as the death penalty goes and eye for an eye and all that spunk.

As far as the rights of a womans body? I'll lose my figure so I will abort the child? Is this the arguement? I hope not.

As far as stereotyping goes heh sure a lot going on...