13-07-2002 05:06									#1
	Why you can't satisfy ANY demands by terrorists before ridding of every one of them Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

And this time - we will use our best Mus... Deist friend - Imran.


Now, as you may have learnt on other threads, Imran said that he supports terrorism and sees it as a legitimate way of action.

When asked why, he replied "because it gets things done. it makes people listen".


What do we wittness here?

Imran has seen that when the terrorists mass murder people, westerners tend to give them what they want.

Guess what? Imran is not alone!!

Millions of people around the world are wittnessing events right now. What do they see?

They see westerners saying : "ouch, that hurt. we better see what they want and make sure we do it. i mean, if they use terror, they must feel bad about it".

Thus, Imran, and 100,000,000s people, learnt that if you bully the west around, targetting innocent civilians, it will "get things done".

Thus, 100,000,000s of people, now see terrorism as a quick and easy way of getting results.


Now sure, we love Imran and we trust him. I know that he would only use terrorism as a last case scenario and only over something very important.

However, as it may happen - 100s of millions of people are a lot of people. Among them, at least some are LOONEY.

Those looney people will use terror. And the west will comply. However, that may not be enough. They will not stop demands. On the contrary - they will increase them.

Remember Mr. Adolf?

You have him Czechoslovakia, and he wanted the whole of Europe, didn't he?

Well now, western journalists, calling for fulfilling the terrorists demands, even before they are dealt with, are giving the next generation of Hitlers, Saddams, Humeinis, bin-Ladens, Stalins a hope for a bright future profit, and a fast way to achieve it.

Way to go

	13-07-2002 05:11									#2
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Your wasting your time Siro, nobody is listening.

	13-07-2002 05:13									#3
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Does anyone know anything tasteless I could put in a cheese sandwich to stop the cheese falling out? I'd use butter but that totally changes the taste.

I suppose I could just grate it rather than using slices....

Any ideas?

	13-07-2002 05:16									#4
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When extremism meets extremism, coming through the rye...

Bad form, Siro. You could have just posted this in the other thread rather than setting up a thread and starting out with an attack on Imran. Very rude.

	13-07-2002 05:16									#5
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You don't seriously think that anyone on earth is unfamiliar with the concept of threats and blackmail, do you? It's a part of human nature.

Some people will always bully others into geting what they want, and some people will always stubornlingly resist, thinking that they are acomplishing something by not giving in.

	13-07-2002 05:17									#6
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quote: Why you can't satisfy ANY demands by terrorists before ridding of every one of them

Gee, you like to flipflop around on the issues.

First you support Israel, then you oppose it....

	13-07-2002 05:25									#7
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Problem with the west is that they live in ways in which eliminating those bastards without due process is not accepted and even more important the west has grown in a peaceful post WWII and is not ready to go to war, especially with a ghost as an enemy. Although I must say that it's very sick to believe that terrorism is right or gets things done. There is no way that it will survive in the long run. They all rise and fall since the organisations are mostly centered around a core of very few people who will eventually grow old. Exception: Castro, he will probably live forever (it's the cigars I guess, remember George Burns). But it's true they do frighten us and in that sense yes they are succesful but I do not think that their demands are met or will ever be met. Name me one terrorist organisation that has achieved anything significant that has stood the test of time.

Note: There is a fundamental difference btwn Stalin, Hussein, Castro, Hitler and theOBLs. We knew where to find the former but the latter are ghosts that will probably never be found.

	13-07-2002 05:25									#8
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I'm intregued by the phrase "It gets things done".

Ireland used terror for decades, nothing was done till they agreed to stop.

Terror is used continuily in Israel by Palestinains, and it's driving the only people that need convincing (Israel) further and further from getting a state.

Terror was used against the US to remove America from the Middle east and end support of Israel, yet both have incresed.

Terror was used by the NLF in Vietnam, it failed so badly that regular forces needed to be committed to avoid complete colaspe (1967), and it still took conventional forces for victory, in 1975.
In fact, mindless terrorism during the Tet offensive actually gave a boost to the South Vietnamese government, something that should have been impossible considering said "government" was a joke.

Terror was used against britain in Malaya from 1948-60, and failed completely.
In fact, it's virtually the only clear win over communism in the entire cold war era.
http://ca.essortment.com/malayanemergenc_rwnt.htm

Seems terror is having the opposite effect of what the terrorists intend, unless your referring to the unaffected fringe, the so-called court of public opinion, which, as you say, is ready to cut any deal to stay alive.

	13-07-2002 05:29									#9
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The point is not satisfying terrorists but those masses (muslim mainstream, remember) that terrorists recruit from. that's the only long term solution.

	13-07-2002 05:30									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba Does anyone know anything tasteless I could put in a cheese sandwich to stop the cheese falling out? I'd use butter but that totally changes the taste. I suppose I could just grate it rather than using slices.... Any ideas?

A toastie maker.

	13-07-2002 05:38									#11
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quote: I'm intregued by the phrase "It gets things done"

yes, it gets things done. It is a cowardly strategy, but if employed correctly it can be effectiv ein the way the organizers want it

just look at FARC for example, first terrorist organization ever that government made an agreement with to leave them alone and give them practicly a part of country

now they are taking it back, but still, terrorism worked there. and there is no reason it is an inefficient by default.

	13-07-2002 05:39									#12
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Good call.....

Must buy one before I die.

	13-07-2002 05:40									#13
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Yes, I suppose there are exceptions to everything.

Still, it seems it's record as a tactic is less then stellar.

	13-07-2002 05:45									#14
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Let's see.

Saudi Arabia is an horrible, evil, nasty country. It oppresses its women in the most hobbile fashion. It uses torture and heinous forms of corporal punishment. It practices de facto slavery. It is massively corrupt. The people of Saudi Arabia hate the government and want to be rid of it. Rightfully so. The US, for businesses reasons, prefers that the Saudis remain in power, and provide intelligence to their government to get their critics. The US sells them weapons and trains their soldiers. The US bases troops on their soil, which the largely fundimentalist people regard as a desecreation of holy ground.

A small group of fanatics decide to start taking on both the government of Saudi Arabia and those who support it. Even thought the people of Saudi Arabia have legitimate greivences, by Siro and Chris's logic, we must not give in, because we will be giving in to the terrorists, who are only one tiny group out of all the others who share these concerns.

They say instead we should stick to our guns. Now, history shows that when people have no other way to get their greivences aired, some of them will resort to violence. So by sticking to our guns, we create the grounds for new terrorists to grow, even while we do something most of us don't support. So ever more people die, because we can't stop doing something we know is wrong, because it would be giving in to terrorism.

And it goes on forever and forever.

Frankly, I don't want to be killed for something I am oppsed to. I don't want to die because we support an evil government (many evil governments, actually). I don't want to die because Israel won't stop using collective punishment and oppressing its natives. I don't want to die for any reason, actually, but especially not for something I don't support.

If that makes me an appeaser, too bad. My princples aren't being violated in giving in. They're being violated by "our" side. We aren't supporting our principles. By doing the exact opposite of what the terrorists demand, we are still supporting agression, oppression, and evil.



BTW, Chris it was the IRAs violence that brought Britain to the negotiation table. Britain didn't give a damn about the Catholics for centuries, even up to the '90s unless violence was used. Northern Ireland shows the success of terrorism, not the failure of it. What's really sad is that 3,000 people had to die for Britain to do something it should have done from the begining.

	13-07-2002 05:45									#15
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Of course it gets thing done. Look at Ireland again. One of the reasons they got their own state in the first place was because of terrorism. The same thing with Israel. Terrorism in a lot of cases has convinced the occupying power that it just isn't worth the time and they thus decide to leave. Hell, in recent history, it happened in Lebanon! Don't sit there and tell me it doesn't work.

Terrorists don't come out of no where. The society at large must feel a great pain to have so many of them join up with terrorist organizations.

Siro: You have a choice. Either make amends and give in to the demands of the population of the nation those terrorists come from, or you could declare outright genocidal war, where a vast majority of your people die as well. Your choice, but I know I'd rather avoid a massive war where both sides are decimated.

	13-07-2002 05:46									#16
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion just look at FARC for example, first terrorist organization ever that government made an agreement with to leave them alone and give them practicly a part of country.

The FARC isn't a terrorist group, it's a guerilla organization.

	13-07-2002 05:47									#17
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quote: The point is not satisfying terrorists but those masses (muslim mainstream, remember) that terrorists recruit from. that's the only long term solution.

Obviously the masses should be satisfied and cared for and promoted.

But you can't do that, without first eliminating the terrorists.

Most lefties want to jump right ahead to the long term solution, which is easy.

They prefer to avoid conflict and war against the extremsits, so they ignore them, thinking they could slowly pull the rug udner their feet.

They can't.

That's the whole point in Israel too.

Theoretically, I don't have a damn problem if Israel is dismantled and we form an Israeli Palestinian union or something.

But the situation on the ground does not allow it, and suggests that Jews will be hurt in such a scenario, and will be kicked out.

I would love a peace process and creating Palestine. I do not wish to create PLO-Land though. PLO is a terrorist organization.



As far as Imran goes - I didn't attack him but used him as an example. He did openly say the things I quoted him on.

Just because I disagree with it, and use it in my arguements doesn't mean a thing about our personal relations.

I consider him a friend, and would love to sit down and talk / drink with him.


Heck, in my real life, a half of my friends are lefties like CyberGnu, Osweld and so on.

	13-07-2002 05:49									#18
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Siro... if you 'stick to your guns', you will have to exterminate every Muslim in the MidEast. I don't think you guys have the stomach for that. You must see the problems, why people are in such despair they are willing to kill. Solve those problems. I can BET you, if Palestine was as rich as Israel (or a European nation), there would be much, much less terrorism, almost nil against Israel.

	13-07-2002 05:51									#19
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Siro, you way is, decades of long and bloddy warfare before finally giving in to what was on the table in the first place. Our way is, do what you should do, and pull the rug out from underneath the support of the terrorists.

Both ways work, one just takes a lot longer and a lot more lives. That's you way.

	13-07-2002 05:52									#20
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Am I the only one who thinks there's something missing in the title of this thread?

Ridding of?

	13-07-2002 05:53									#21
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So if one is rich he does not commit terrorism? Tell that to OBL. Maybe he didn't read the script.

	13-07-2002 05:55									#22
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quote: Obviously the masses should be satisfied and cared for and promoted. But you can't do that, without first eliminating the terrorists.

Wrong-o. You will never eliminate terrorism so long as a large number of the masses are still legitimately aggrieved by the actions of the United States. You've got it backwards. You seem to forget that oppression breeds extremists, not the other way around.

	13-07-2002 05:56									#23
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Some people only understand the blood that is flowing out of their veins. You cannot reason with fanatics. That is why they are called fanatics.

	13-07-2002 05:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln So if one is rich he does not commit terrorism? Tell that to OBL. Maybe he didn't read the script.

OBL doesn't act alone... Hell, I don't think he even does any actual terrorism - just the 'paper work'.

	13-07-2002 05:57									#25
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quote: So if one is rich he does not commit terrorism? Tell that to OBL. Maybe he didn't read the script.

If the Muslim world was as rich as the European one, OBL wouldn't have many friends, and not nearly enough to do anything greater than car bombs.

	13-07-2002 05:58									#26
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quote: Some people only understand the blood that is flowing out of their veins. You cannot reason with fanatics. That is why they are called fanatics.

And there are reasons they become fanatics! Duh, they aren't born that way. Eliminate the reasons for being fanatical and watch the fanatics dissapear.

	13-07-2002 05:59									#27
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quote: A small group of fanatics decide to start taking on both the government of Saudi Arabia and those who support it. Even thought the people of Saudi Arabia have legitimate greivences, by Siro and Chris's logic, we must not give in, because we will be giving in to the terrorists, who are only one tiny group out of all the others who share these concerns.

No we must not give in, and we must defeat the terrorists.

And after that, only then, can we rationally rethink our position and make changes. If we make the changes appear a result of "caving in", it will promote more violence.

We infact should make terror obsolete, by not letting it bear fruit.


As I've said, I'm not against a pal state. I have supported it and will - in peace talks. If I will be conviced of true peace, I won't mind sharing Jerusalem or what ever.

But I do not plan to give up to bullies.

quote: I don't want to die because Israel won't stop using collective punishment and oppressing its natives.

Oh blah blah.

tell me, was WWII a collective punishment of the germans??

It's god damn freaking war. Not a toy game. When you need to, you put a curfew.

quote: The same thing with Israel. Terrorism in a lot of cases has convinced the occupying power that it just isn't worth the time and they thus decide to leave. Hell, in recent history, it happened in Lebanon! Don't sit there and tell me it doesn't work

Imran - terrorism was what made us go in lebanon in the first palce.

We didn't conquer it in 56, or 67 or 73, because until the late 70s, Lebanon wasn't a base for PLO.

And don't even dare call lebanese terrorism "liberation". The lebanese are now under Syrian occupation and their "liberation" groups are cooperating with it.

And you know well that the Syrian occupation is much more cruel than the Israeli one.

The whole point is that we never gained anything from Lebanon. We only stayed there because it regenerated terror.

Now we left without a deal. So now
a) the Palestinians saw "hey it works" and started the intifada
b) hezballa deplyed hudreds of missiles threatening deeper Israel
c) hezballa supports funds, weapons and troops to Palestinians.

Great solution

quote: Siro: You have a choice. Either make amends and give in to the demands of the population of the nation those terrorists come from, or you could declare outright genocidal war, where a vast majority of your people die as well. Your choice, but I know I'd rather avoid a massive war where both sides are decimated.

Israel is ready to duscuss the demands of the palestinains. If instead of the intifada, Arafat had began a PR campaign, in 12 months he would have had more territory and more control.

but he went on and started a second lebanon. which is why Sharon was elected and why the Palestinian state looks farther away then ever.

Basically, all the trust and affection Israelis built up for 7 years is gone.

Great result

But then again, were we belgium, we'd already had packed our bags and left.

	13-07-2002 06:00									#28
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The point is that his riches did not prevent him form being a fanatic. Money has nothing to do with the behaviour of fanatics. They can find whatever excuse they want whether rich or poor.

	13-07-2002 06:01									#29
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quote: And there are reasons they become fanatics! Duh, they aren't born that way. Eliminate the reasons for being fanatical and watch the fanatics dissapear

But you are forgetting several key elements.

You can't simply eleminate the reasons.

you must also eleminiate the current active fanatics and make sure that they don't spread more hate.

What you're asking israel to do, is give up all demands, and then hope that all the fanatics decide to go back being normal.

	13-07-2002 06:01									#30
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Quit whining and give them a freaking state in the 67 borders with Israel arranging police structure for 10 years, including the organizaiton of autonome police that actually works after said 10 years. OR 5 years, whatever. It's the answer to all problems. But no. More land more land more land.