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The "Palestinians" may be innocent, but Israel NEVER occupied their lands as the "palestinians" never had any land. They are the result of illegal immigrations from Egypt, Syria and Jordan - as noted by the British and the Turks in their various censii.
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our_man
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Glasgow, Scotland
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
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I'd just thought I 'd set the record straight on the Irish War of Indepence being used as a terrorist analogy. There were some incidences of terror committed by Volunteer (later IRA) forces e.g. the burning of landlords homes, but these were greatly eclipsed by the atrocities the British carried out (The Burning of Cork, Bloody Sunday) during the war. The IRA targetted British forces and engaged in a campaign of geurilla warfare through the use of the "flying columns".
Some might debate as to whether the RIC was then a target, but the fact is that they were well armed and resembled more a paramilitary group than a police force. Collins was a military leader, not a terrorist - he did not fight cleanly preferring to ambush British troops(which is probably a good thing, since his forces were greatly outnumbered by British soldiers), but he did not conduct a campaign of terror as many seem to believe. Who was he trying to terrorize - the local population? Unlikely since Sinn Fein enjoyed 90% support at the time of the war.
Collins' goal was to make Ireland ungovernable for the British - by destroying the Crowns forces and it's institutions by replacing them with Irish ones e.g. the Dail courts set up during the war. This does not sound like the work of a terrorist.
With regard to the Free State offer, it might or might not have been neccesary for Collins' to wage war against the British to get it, I guess we'll never know. The reason why it degenerated into violence is that the British had previously reneged on their promise of Home Rule with the advent of WW1, and were only winning to grant it to Ireland during the war if conscription were allowed. The Irish people had good reason not to take their assurances at face value.
Another interesting fact is that the "Welsh Wizard", Lloyd George, bluffed Collins into accepting the Free State offer with the threat of a renewed war - in fact he knew that British public opinion would never tolerate it (after the Labour Delegation to Ireland of 1921 exposed the atrocities being committed by British forces). If Collins had called his bluff, Ireland could have had full independence.
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our_man
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Glasgow, Scotland
Oct 2000
time: 05:20
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I wouldn't neccesarily agree with your statement Dinodoc. As the war went on, terrorist acts did increase on both sides due to the intense hatred, but on the Irish side they remained minor incidents compared to their other military actions. In fact the Irish fighters began to resemble a more coherent force towards the end of the war, behaving more and more like an army.
This is in no way better illustrated than in the burning of the Customs House during the final days of the war. The Dail realized that these hit and run raids could not get sufficient international attention, and required a more head-on approach. I'm not too sure of the numbers involved in the actual battle, but at the end of the day over 100 IRA soldiers had been killed, captured or wounded. It was worth the cost however as the Customs House was one of the major symbols of British rule in Ireland, and soon afterwards (it might have been the next day) a cease-fire was declared.
Another indication of the IRA's discipline is that during the cease-fire, there were no acts committed (as far as I am aware) by them which could have led to it breaking down i.e. they halted all military activity. This does not sound like a group of terrorists but a disciplined group of soldiers, whose organization Collins played a major part in.
Another fact which I have never been able to understand about those who denounce Collins as a terrorist is that no-one wanted peace more than him. He knew the treaty wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, yet he reffered to it as a "stepping-stone" through which they could acheive more freedom and accepted it in order to end the bloodshed. De Valera was the one who repudiated the treaty leading to the Civil War.
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
CICS:
If you wish to add something constructuve to the debate, you might want to consult a non-jewish textbook, however... |
Gnu:
You must have a different history book than the rest of us. Is yours the one written by Yasser. You know, the one where the Jews were actually all killed by Hitler, and the people in Israel now are Americans who wish to deprive the Pals of their land.
If you want to add something interesting to the debate, perhaps you should looks at the census figures from the Brits and the Turqs of the area that is NOW Israel. Not the area of the whole middle east. 
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Roland
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Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:20
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 16-07-2002 14:43
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#115
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Re: Why you can't satisfy ANY demands by terrorists before ridding of every one of th
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Got spare money?
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
They see westerners saying : "ouch, that hurt. we better see what they want and make sure we do it. i mean, if they use terror, they must feel bad about it".
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Those looney people will use terror. And the west will comply. However, that may not be enough. They will not stop demands. On the contrary - they will increase them.
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Well now, western journalists, calling for fulfilling the terrorists demands, even before they are dealt with, are giving the next generation of Hitlers, Saddams, Humeinis, bin-Ladens, Stalins a hope for a bright future profit, and a fast way to achieve it.
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You don't negotiate with terrorists about political targets unless they agree to a ceasefire. Fine. But the political situation wrt terror varies. The german RAF had about zero hold in the people, it was futile to debate any of their aims. The german government did not cave one inch to the RAF. The spanish government did not cave to ETA but still worked with moderate Basque nationalists to establish Basque autonomy. Honestly, I can't hear this "soft europeans" propaganda bullshit any longer, coming from a bunch of idiots who cook their own little soups on this "war" on "terror". It's a shame and utterly pathetic for free countries that this has become dogma in most US and Israeli media.
Parallel to palestinian terrorism, there is a political problem behind it affecting virtually all the palestinian people. You know that you won't get rid of every terrorist. Your suggestion simply means that there will be no political solution. And Sharon it seems does not want one, so it's a perfectly fitting strategy for him.
Getting to the politics while terrorists are active is far from a perfect situation, but it is usually the result of earlier injustice. Israel has to a large extent only itself to blame for the quagmire, especially with the idiotic settlement policy.
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Gentlemen, Gentlemen,...
no need to get upset.
I have been researching the population of what was called Palestine and found the following:
quote:
Historic Right!
With the exception of the 70 years' Babylonian desolation/captivity, the Jewish people had lived without interruption in the Land of Israel as a thriving nation until A.D. 70, ending a period of over seventeen hundred years. The Jewish population of Israel actually peaked at two and one-half million just before the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and expulsion of its people in 70 A.D. Small numbers of Jews have lived in Israel, particularity in Safed and other areas of the Galilee.
The opening of the doors to Jewish settlement in modern Israel can be pinpointed to 1878 when, by the diplomatic skill of Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli at the Berlin Congress of Nations. Britain was given a protectorate over Palestine. Disraeli had approached the Congress with the intention of achieving control over Palestine and had fully expected a mass immigration of Jews numbering one million.
World War 1 was a big turning point in the end time prophecy of regathering the Jewish people to the Land Of Israel. Turkey, with an expansive empire that included the Middle East, Palestine and North Africa, fought with Germany against the allies. The allies were victorious resulting in the break up of the Turkish Empire. Both Jews and Arabs requested independent states but, while the world powers were extremely generous to the Arabs and granted them 22 independent States that encompassed an area of 5,414,000 square miles, the Jews were granted less than one percent of this enormous area for a Jewish refuge. The allies agreed and designated an area which included both sides of the Jordan in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the San Remo Conference of World Powers of 1920.
For political reasons, Great Britain in 1921 reneged on the Balfour Declaration. They used 78 percent of the Land promised to the Jewish People in the Balfour Declaration to establish Transjordan and the Arab Emirate. In 1922, the League of Nations gave Great Britain a Mandate to prepare the remaining 22 percent of Palestine (including Judea, Samaria, Gaza, the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem) for a Jewish Homeland. Under French Pressure, the Golan Heights were given by the British to the French mandate in Syria.
Vast reserves of oil were then discovered in Arab countries. This lead the British to even greater appeasement in foreign policy towards the Arabs resulting in the "white paper" of 1939. This British policy paper lead to the banning of further Jewish immigration to Palestine. Britain's "white paper", together with the refusal of the United States and most other nations to accept Jewish refugees resulted in the trapping of millions of Jews in Nazi occupied Europe and the slaughter of one third of world Jewry. This is one of the most heinous crimes of history... perhaps the worst. Indeed, the Prime Minister of Britian, Lloyd George, described the issuance of the "white paper" as "an act of national perfidy which will forever dishonor the name of Britain."
Finally, the world, felt a moral obligation to grant the Jews an independent state. Unfortunately, the UN partition plan for Palestine in 1947 further reduced the size of the new Israeli State. The Jews accepted this compromise and agreed to a country that had indefensible borders. The Arabs refused partition even though they had more than 99% of the previous Turkish empire in the Middle East. Six Arab armies attacked Israel and occupied East Jerusalem including the Old City. Transjordan captured East Jerusalem and expelled all Jews and destroyed or desecrated all Jewish holy sites including the Jewish cemetary on the Mount of Olives. Transjordan occupied the old city and Judea and Samaria. "Jordan" (as it is now known) is the present-day occupier of this once Jewish territory as per the British mandate.
The war of 1948 created the "refugee problem" that has become one of the sticking points of the present Middle East "Peace" negotiations. Although many Arabs claim that 800 thousand to 1 million Palestinian Arabs (there were "Palestinian Jews" in that period, too, remember!) were made refugees from 1947-49. The last census taken in 1945 showed that only 756,000 permanent Arab residents were in Israel/Palestine. That number increased to only 809,100 at the time of the UN vote for partition which sparked the Arab attack on Jews in Israel. Another census after the war counted 160,000 Arabs still living in the country of Israel. That leaves no more than 650,000 Arabs as refugees from that war over 50 years ago! A UN report submitted in France after the war noted only 472,000 refugees.
The Arabs then made their refugees in to pawns to be used as a political weapon against Israel. Israel willingly absorbed the 600,000 Jewish refugees that fled Arab countries. The Arabs treated their own "refugees" as inferior people and did not allow them to become absorbed in the surrounding Arab countries.
In 1967, with the liberation of Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem, Israel wanted to negotiate a peace settlement that would include returning all of Judea and Samaria and refugee resettlement. At that time there were no Jewish settlements in Samaria and East Jerusalem. Again, the Arabs refused to negotiate..."no negotiations and no recognition of Israel's right to exist."
The bottom line here is that we Jews have the Biblical mandate to settle our land and we have the legal, moral and historical right as declared and recongized by the League of Nations in 1922. The United Nations demonstrates total disregard for its own predessor, The League of Nations, by referring to any part of the Jewish homeland as occupied territory.
Mark Twain, in a visit to the Holy land in the 1800's remarked how desolate and malaria infested the land was. He had a hard time understanding why anyone would want to live here.
Arab nationalism came only within the last 100 years and only in direct response to the immigration of large numbers of Jews to Israel and to Jewish success in draining the swamps and restoring the Land. If Jews had not returned to Israel, Palestine would have remained desolate and underdeveloped. Until the Balfour declaration in 1917, Palestine had for centuries been a neglected corner of various Arab or Islamic tribes, Bedouin clans, fellahin (rural peasants) or empires such as the Ottoman Turks who divided the Land up as mentioned earlier. The claim of a united Palestinian people going back thousands of years is a myth that has been created to further their political aspirations and discredit the historical and religious legitimacy of the bond between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel.
Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian authority are trying to rewrite history. They present themselves as descendants of the Philistines and the Canaanites.
Yasser Arafat even claims Jesus as baptized as "the first Palestinian." So effective has Arafat's lies been that no less than Pope John Paul II during his recent visit to PA self control areas described the local shepherds of Jesus' time as the Palestinian' ancestors. He overlooked the fact that Jesus and his contemporaries were Jews.
Recently, a PA official commenting on this year's national soccer team described itself as the first Palestinian team since 1934. He didn't mention that the 1934 "Palestinian" squad consisted almost entirely of Zionist Jews.
The myth and lie that the Palestinian Authority has created and perpetuated is that all the periods of the land's past have been woven into one continuous narrative of Palestinian history.
The historian Benard Lewis refers to this as crossing the line from "recovered history" to "invented history."
What is most disturbing is that the international community and the media have swallowed this package of lies and distortion.
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So it appears that whilst I was wrong to say there were no Arabs in Palestine at the time, the clear intent of the International Community at the time of setting up Israel, was to partition the Jews and Arabs, which it appears the Arabs refused to counternance.
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