13-07-2002 06:59									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That's the problem. You know, if I asked this question in 1999, you would have said, we stepped over it in 1995 or something. You will never admit there is another road in the end.

	13-07-2002 06:59									#62
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Imran - quite the contrary - I support all possible actions.

I'm not saying "hey, let's forget the peace process and kill all palestinians and wait until the submit".

I'm saying - let's get rid of the terrorists and quickly proceed with the peace process.

	13-07-2002 07:01									#63
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Imran - you're wrong. At least about me.

In 1999 I was a firm believer in ignoring the casual terracts and getting on with the peace process.

	13-07-2002 07:01									#64
	Tired of ads?

Yes, the peace process that ends when you masscre every Palestinian

You don't want to negotiate, yet want peace.

	13-07-2002 07:11									#65
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

?

no, I didn't believe in massacare then and i still don't now.

i do believe that we should kill every hamas, jihad and fatah member.

i do believe that we should topple the tunis bunch.

i do believe in international aid in serious elections, followed by a rapid peace and disarmament agreement.

hey look, in 2000 i was among the 40%-50% who agreed to barak's moves. and do consider that what was published in israel was more far reaching than what was actually discussed, since barak always leaked more far reaching proposals, to test grounds.

	13-07-2002 07:13									#66
	Inflate your Upload Space

You're no longer arguing with me but with your stereotype of me.

I know I'm special.

I'm both an extreme righty and extreme leftie. It confuses my Israeli friends too.

	13-07-2002 07:17									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, the peace process that ends when you masscre every Palestinian

I wouldn't say that. If they kill all the oposition there is no more fighting. No war, means peace.

	13-07-2002 07:38									#68
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let me try a simple question. Is it cost effective to create five new terrorists to get one old one?

Look, you cannot get rid of all of the crazies in the world, even in a perfect society. You will always have to deal with some people who will want to do evil to you. You have a choice as to the number of them, however. You can repress as hard as you can until you think the genie is back in the bottle, and build up the pressure so when you finally do loosen things up, it explodes, or you can try and stop doing the things which cause otherwise moderate people to lose any hope of getting justice who then resort to violence.

	13-07-2002 07:44									#69
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It Depends.

Is the old one about to commit a terrorist attack right now? If so yes.

If not - then no.

If I keep him alive will I save more lives?


Btw, che - you're talking as if Israel all of a sudden lost it and invaded.

don't forget the stages from October 2000, when palestinian violence was prevalent and Israel merely responded.

Now they say that 'can't stop terror, due to Israeli troops being there'.

Well what prevented them stopping terror before Israeli troops entered? They only entered in late 2001.

	13-07-2002 07:45									#70
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I ever say i supported these clowns?

I know you don't I started on a hypotheical situation that became an actual one.

quote: Che, Che, Che, what has become of you? You should turn in your party badge. You don't become a terrorist, you become a revoluntionary, a VERY different animal. Terrorism gets you nowhere.

And that's what I would argue to them. That terrorism only brings down the irrational arm of the law.Both sides feed the other. At some point the cycle has to break. I think I can make more headway appealing to the rational side and get it to stop doing the things that feed the irrational side than vice versa.

These people are my enemies also. They would kill me as soon as look at me. I have no illusions that I could even make headway with them. But I know who I can make headway with, and that's the millions and millions of frstrated Arabs and Muslims if we stop doing the things that piss them all off, extremist and moderate alike. An extremist is a frustrated moderate. If I can stop the frustration, I can stop the create of more extremists. It won't stop all of them. But I'd rather have 100 enemies than 10,000.

	13-07-2002 07:47									#71
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Re the claim that the IRA bombed it way to the peace table: That seems like sophistry to me considering the fact that the British have always been willing to talk to the IRA, but they are not today anymore willing to make concessions to terrorism than they ever have been. The current crop of IRA terrorists have gained nothing more through the use of such tactics than did Michael Collins.

	13-07-2002 07:48									#72
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Btw, che - you're talking as if Israel all of a sudden lost it and invaded. don't forget the stages from October 2000, when palestinian violence was prevalent and Israel merely responded.

That moderation was only in your mind. Israel was still stealing Palestinian land and water, still occupied most of Palestine, still expanding the settlements, still humiliating the Palestinian people. And it was going on before the mass of Palestinian violence.

	13-07-2002 07:48									#73
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Che - then what's the problem of doing both things?

Both ridding of extremists and treatment of the causes?

Why do lefties choose to ignore every path that is calling for ridding of those factors?

	13-07-2002 07:51									#74
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Re the claim that the IRA bombed it way to the peace table: That seems like sophistry to me considering the fact that the British have always been willing to talk to the IRA, but they are not today anymore willing to make concessions to terrorism than they ever have been. The current crop of IRA terrorists have gained nothing more through the use of such tactics than did Michael Collins.

The Brits didn't negotiate with them before the Troubles started, did they? The Brits let the Protestants run roughshod over the Catholic community. Britain's precondition was always that the IRA lay down its arms first. The recent talks, the IRA didn't have to lay down its arms first, just agree to a cease-fire and negotiate the destruction of arm to be done at a later date.

And Michael Collins was able to drive the Brits out, so he certainly got something accomplished.

	13-07-2002 07:53									#75
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Che - then what's the problem of doing both things? Both ridding of extremists and treatment of the causes?

Because they way you (an we) are going about the one precludes the other.

I'm not saying we ignore the terrorists and let them go on hitting us. Obviously they need to be dealt with. Because, as I said, thy aren't going to go away just because we start doing right by the majority. But by getting rid of the desperation that feeds them, every loss they suffer isn't like swatting a hydra.

	13-07-2002 08:00									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I disagree about stealing palestinian land.

The whole point is that their claims about stealing land are often about settling on land which they consider generally palestinian.

rare were the occasions when palestinians could actually present documents showing that this or that hilltop were actually their private property. at least to my knowledge.

as for water - water is needed by both peoples. israel is using equiffers in other areas afaik, most not related to the palestinian areas.

plus israel actually has the installations for handling the water and was also supplying water to south lebanon not only the pals.

so it's possible they got their own water supplied to them by israel . The horror!!



occupying is also wierd. israeli troops were on the borders of israel and the settlements.

now - it is an occupation. israeli troops are in palestinian towns or on their borders.

previously the maximum you'd see would be a military jeep or APC and that too near settlements.

it was nothing compared to todays clamp down.

what stopped the palestinian intelligence fighting with terror?

israel only began bombing in 2001, and only began incursions in late 2001.

they had almost an entire year to stop the terrorists, before Israel went in to do it herself

	13-07-2002 08:31									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The recent talks, the IRA didn't have to lay down its arms first, just agree to a cease-fire and negotiate the destruction of arm to be done at a later date.

The essential precondition to negotiation was that they cease attacking civilians in order for negotiations to take place. How that is carried out is immaterial to the final settlement.

quote: And Michael Collins was able to drive the Brits out, so he certainly got something accomplished.

The practical result of Collins's campaign of terror was an offer by the British in 1921 of free state status: nothing more than what the nationalists could have had in 1914.

	13-07-2002 09:03									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

One cannot live forever with a hostile neighbor. Erecting fences provides only a short term solution. Think of what the Germans eventually did to the Romans.

It is time for Israel to think out of the box and seek a long term solution.

	13-07-2002 14:32									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I second Siro's question:

quote: what stopped the palestinian intelligence fighting with terror?

	13-07-2002 18:22									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I've been saying it forever.
NEVER negotiate with terrorists or kidnappers.
Someone nabs me, and the authorities get a location, vaporize the area.

	13-07-2002 18:47									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hmm. Terrorism can work.

The problem is that terrorism, when directed against an enemy's homeland, usually has the opposite effet of what's intended. that's why the Isrsraeli's are now cracking down more decisively than ever, and Bush is looking for more countries to blow up, Because all you've done is pinprick foes that are much, much larger than you.

something about never doing a foe a small harm comes to mind here.

	13-07-2002 18:54									#82
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Why you can't satisfy ANY demands by terrorists before ridding of every one of them

You can't get rid of terrorist by military means alone. In fact, military means can make the terrorist's cause even stronger.

	13-07-2002 19:01									#83
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Right. We should stick a flower in the barrel of their gun.

	13-07-2002 19:40									#84
	Remove this text

quote: Why you can't satisfy ANY demands by terrorists before ridding of every one of them

That's bright, Siro. Just another way you guarantee the problem will never be solved. "We know this is the right thing to do, but until we're satisfied we've killed everyone we feel like killing, we won't do it"

Sheer bloodymindedness.

	13-07-2002 20:13									#85
	Remove this text

Since there will always be terrorists, by refusing to satisfy the demands of the people until the terrorists are destroyed, you are effectively saying, we shall never meet your demands, ever.

	13-07-2002 20:15									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've mentioned this before, but it seems astounding that one man with a gun can apparently put off peace negotiations.

	13-07-2002 21:37									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: The problem is that terrorism, when directed against an enemy's homeland, usually has the opposite effet of what's intended. that's why the Isrsraeli's are now cracking down more decisively than ever, and Bush is looking for more countries to blow up

And that is exactly what terrorists want. The leaders are wacky. They want everyone to by martyrs. By having the enemy bomb and kill innocents, they gain more to their side. Like che said, would you rather create 5 new terrorists or just keep it the same number?

	14-07-2002 01:36									#88
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well, it would be a problem for Siro if Israel ever intended to have peace.

But since peace is the LAST thing Sharon wants, this policy if the best propaganda material they have... It sounds good since it mimics the policy versus kidnappers and hostage takers, even though the causes are quite different...

Hey, it sounds reasonable enought that 18 year olds will spout it as gospel on a bulletin board, without ever contemplating how false the comparisons are...

	14-07-2002 07:40									#89
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: I'm not saying we ignore the terrorists and let them go on hitting us. Obviously they need to be dealt with. Because, as I said, thy aren't going to go away just because we start doing right by the majority. But by getting rid of the desperation that feeds them, every loss they suffer isn't like swatting a hydra.

Ok.

But could we please avoid doing the right thing to the majority in a way that will not be read as "we give up, don't hurt us anymore or we will give up again" ?

	14-07-2002 07:47									#90
	Remove this text

quote: I've mentioned this before, but it seems astounding that one man with a gun can apparently put off peace negotiations.

If the opposite side is not willing to stop the man with the gun from attacking, then there is no point in negociations.

I supported ignoring terror while I was under the impression the terrorists were a small group, against the peace process and unrelated to the majority.

But the fact of the matter is, that our negociating partner, is the one who employs terror, in order to nudge us into making concessions. Generally, everytime Israel didn't succumb to Arafat's demands, he gave more room and funding to terror.

That is unacceptable.

quote: Well, it would be a problem for Siro if Israel ever intended to have peace. But since peace is the LAST thing Sharon wants, this policy if the best propaganda material they have... It sounds good since it mimics the policy versus kidnappers and hostage takers, even though the causes are quite different... Hey, it sounds reasonable enought that 18 year olds will spout it as gospel on a bulletin board, without ever contemplating how false the comparisons are...

This from a man who doesn't acknowledge the existance of civilians in a conflict between two nations, and therefore thinks terrorism against civilians is ok.

Go lecture someone new.