13-07-2002 06:02									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Some people only understand the blood that is flowing out of their veins. You cannot reason with fanatics. That is why they are called fanatics. And there are reasons they become fanatics! Duh, they aren't born that way. Eliminate the reasons for being fanatical and watch the fanatics dissapear.

Then eliminate Israel?

	13-07-2002 06:03									#32
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no, but eliminate their oppression... only losers come up with stuff like that, Lincoln

	13-07-2002 06:07									#33
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quote: And after that, only then, can we rationally rethink our position and make changes. If we make the changes appear a result of "caving in", it will promote more violence.

See, you've gotten it all wrong. This is why the ME won't see peace in my lifetime. Because Isreael doesn't understand. If Israel 'caves', it is the ONLY way to reduce fanaticism. You can't do the other way.

quote: But I do not plan to give up to bullies.

Hey, the British did, when they gave you up to the UN to make your state.

quote: And don't even dare call lebanese terrorism "liberation". The lebanese are now under Syrian occupation and their "liberation" groups are cooperating with it.

Of course it was liberation! It was taken away from the Jews and given back to the Arabs.

quote: Now we left without a deal. So now

That's because you still are using violence and oppresion against their brothers. Don't expect everyone to play nice while you crush them. And terrorism was happening BEFORE you left as well.

quote: You can't simply eleminate the reasons.

Um... it's pretty easy actually. Give them their state, as agreed to in Oslo. Try to work with them on making the people richer. Then in a generation, terrorism will be something that happens very rarely.

	13-07-2002 06:07									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Let's see. Saudi Arabia is an horrible, evil, nasty country. It oppresses its women in the most hobbile fashion. It uses torture and heinous forms of corporal punishment. It practices de facto slavery. It is massively corrupt. The people of Saudi Arabia hate the government and want to be rid of it. Rightfully so. The US, for businesses reasons, prefers that the Saudis remain in power, and provide intelligence to their government to get their critics. The US sells them weapons and trains their soldiers. The US bases troops on their soil, which the largely fundimentalist people regard as a desecreation of holy ground.

I ever say i supported these clowns?

quote: A small group of fanatics decide to start taking on both the government of Saudi Arabia and those who support it. Even thought the people of Saudi Arabia have legitimate greivences, by Siro and Chris's logic, we must not give in, because we will be giving in to the terrorists, who are only one tiny group out of all the others who share these concerns.

Che, Che, Che, what has become of you?
You should turn in your party badge.
You don't become a terrorist, you become a revoluntionary, a VERY different animal.
Terrorism gets you nowhere.

quote: They say instead we should stick to our guns. Now, history shows that when people have no other way to get their greivences aired, some of them will resort to violence. So by sticking to our guns, we create the grounds for new terrorists to grow, even while we do something most of us don't support. So ever more people die, because we can't stop doing something we know is wrong, because it would be giving in to terrorism.

Faulty logic, terrorism gets you nowhere and you know it.
You want a revolution, fine.
Start one, but revolutions are not blowing up children and crashing airliners into buildings.
Stop trying to equate terror into freedom fighting, freedom fighting means taking up arms and fighting an opposing army, NOT targeting non-combatants.

quote: And it goes on forever and forever.

Terrorisn is non-productive.

quote: Frankly, I don't want to be killed for something I am oppsed to. I don't want to die because we support an evil government (many evil governments, actually). I don't want to die because Israel won't stop using collective punishment and oppressing its natives. I don't want to die for any reason, actually, but especially not for something I don't support.

I don't want to either, but that choice is out of your hands if you give iot to a terrorist.
If the government backs things you oppose, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
Make your voice heard, be a factor.
Get people to listen, then get the politicans to listen, and don't hand me that crap that is doesn't work, I'm an historian, I know damn well it does.
This crap that cold blooded murder is justified in any way is bullsh!t.

quote: If that makes me an appeaser, too bad. My princples aren't being violated in giving in. They're being violated by "our" side. We aren't supporting our principles. By doing the exact opposite of what the terrorists demand, we are still supporting agression, oppression, and evil.

Makes you a fence sitter, and ineffective.
Do something, trying to justify terror isn't the way.

quote: BTW, Chris it was the IRAs violence that brought Britain to the negotiation table. Britain didn't give a damn about the Catholics for centuries, even up to the '90s unless violence was used. Northern Ireland shows the success of terrorism, not the failure of it. What's really sad is that 3,000 people had to die for Britain to do something it should have done from the begining.

I disagree, they did it continually for almost 70 years and got nowhere, it was only when they agreed to stop that any talks took place.

	13-07-2002 06:07									#35
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quote: Siro, you way is, decades of long and bloddy warfare before finally giving in to what was on the table in the first place. Our way is, do what you should do, and pull the rug out from underneath the support of the terrorists. Both ways work, one just takes a lot longer and a lot more lives. That's you way.

You really think that pulling that rug is a process of a minute?

Pulling that rug as about re-education. new acceptance in society. restoration of legitimate rights.

all that can't be done while the fanatics are in power.

quote: If the Muslim world was as rich as the European one, OBL wouldn't have many friends, and not nearly enough to do anything greater than car bombs.

Interesting. I was sure that the richest people come oil producing countries.

I was also sure that they give a good lot of money to ossama, hamas and so on.

quote: Wrong-o. You will never eliminate terrorism so long as a large number of the masses are still legitimately aggrieved by the actions of the United States. You've got it backwards. You seem to forget that oppression breeds extremists, not the other way around.

But you forget another thing - extremists breed extremists.

Thus if you only remove opression - the existing extremists keep breeding.

If your approach was correct, then in 1939, after getting the versailles limitation practically anulled and getting much more than they deserve in land in Europe, Germans should have stayed happy and content and peaceful.

But it wasn't so. Why?

Because Hilter was in power - and Hitler bread extremists.

	13-07-2002 06:12									#36
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quote: I disagree, they did it continually for almost 70 years and got nowhere, it was only when they agreed to stop that any talks took place.

bingo.

It was only when PLO promised to only talk that Israel agreed to talk.


The problem is che is wearing his commie goggles on, and still thinks that a "lower class" has no other means but a bloodie strugle to get the "higher class" to listen to him.

That's exactly your problem che - you are forcing this world view on things which don't work according to it.

Is there often fighting between weaker and stronger? Sure. Is it limited to the model of weak against strong opressors? No - it isn't.

But someone with commie-goggles can't notice that.

	13-07-2002 06:13									#37
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quote: all that can't be done while the fanatics are in power.

The chance of it being done are nil while you bully them and kick sand in their faces. The only way to end the violence is to begin yourselves.

quote: Interesting. I was sure that the richest people come oil producing countries. I was also sure that they give a good lot of money to ossama, hamas and so on.

Which is because that is where the people want to see the money go.

quote: But you forget another thing - extremists breed extremists.

Bullshit. Situations breed extremists.

quote: If your approach was correct, then in 1939, after getting the versailles limitation practically anulled and getting much more than they deserve in land in Europe, Germans should have stayed happy and content and peaceful. But it wasn't so. Why?

Because they were whipped into a fervor. Were pissed by the French stomping on them. The French didn't give them anything, the Germans TOOK it, and wanted to punish them more. If the French were more concillatory, Hitler would have never risen to power.

What do you want to do, Siro? You want the Palestinians to TAKE land and continue to be angry at you, or do you want to GIVE them land and show them you aren't the evil people they thought you were.

	13-07-2002 06:15									#38
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Once Addi H was in power, even an immediate revision of the treaty would have meant bugger all.

And facng the economic crisis, maybe they would have gotten into power anyway, but that is unlikely.

	13-07-2002 06:15									#39
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*yawn*

Siro, you are saying it is just like Northern Ireland in the IRA decided not to fight so the British negotiated. The only reason the British decided to listen to the Irish in the first place was BECAUSE of the terrorism.

And che isn't looking at it with commie-goggles. You are simply looking at this with Jew-goggles, where Israel is always right.

	13-07-2002 06:15									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion no, but eliminate their oppression... only losers come up with stuff like that, Lincoln

They hate Jews. They kill them wherever they find them. Some hated them before they even met one. The problem is irrational hate. Yes many Muslims would live in peace with their neighbors but fanatical terrorists or another problem altogether.

	13-07-2002 06:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov But you forget another thing - extremists breed extremists. Thus if you only remove opression - the existing extremists keep breeding. If your approach was correct, then in 1939, after getting the versailles limitation practically anulled and getting much more than they deserve in land in Europe, Germans should have stayed happy and content and peaceful. But it wasn't so. Why? Because Hilter was in power - and Hitler bread extremists.

As has been pointed out before, your Hitler comparison is baseless and stupid.

Had the harsh terms of Versailles never been imposed, Hitler never would have come to power in the first place. Had the terms not included the crushing financial burden--which led to Germany's horrible economic problems--then Hitler wouldn't have come to power, either.

The Palestinians are not yet at the stage of Nazi Germany, the are more akin to the Jews in the Ghettos of Warsaw. They don't hold political power, their land is occupied by hostile forces, and they are dying in grotesque numbers.

Had the other European powers done what we're proposing here--basically, addressing the root causes of extremism--then Nazi Germany likely would never had happened. Israel is setting itself up for a future of more bloodshed, not less, under the current policies.

Extremists will come into existence without other extremists being around, silly. People who would ordinarily be normal folks will become extremists under extreme conditions. The Palestinians exist under extreme conditions, and as long as they do so, more extremists will be bred in response.

The foolish stubborness of Israeli hardliners in this matter is so mindbogglingly exhasperating and so blatantly racist that I can only think of one word for them: Israelinazis.

	13-07-2002 06:18									#42
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What I'm talking about is the fact you twisted the things he said in his mouth. More and more it seems to me that things like that (consdiered as very Jewish by stereotypists) are considered what they are for soem reason after all, with twisting things coming from that site, over and over again.

You must have KNOWN he was talking about elimination of Israeli policies, that "eliminating Israel?" thing was so destructive that I wonder what you guys are debating for. Why not use the club, liek our ancestors did?

	13-07-2002 06:21									#43
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* Yawn

Never mind Siro

	13-07-2002 06:22									#44
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Yeah, if Siro is going to try to paint Palestinians are Nazis, then I'm going to start (again) calling the Israeli state a Fascist neo-Nazi regime, that are keeping the Palestinians like the jews in ghettos in Hitler's Germany.

	13-07-2002 06:22									#45
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site owners: why don't you ban guys like him and give me my posts back

	13-07-2002 06:24									#46
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stop being so destructive guys... after all you know the others have some brains, so (esp Chris62) stop being arseholes and f*cking think about what they say

Siro, you're right after all, but you shouldn't make an approach with a short term solution but present the whole pciture from the start. noone ever said there's only the long term solution.

we just have different approaches to the same concept

and you have to understand Israel can't have everything. it's thje conspiracy state after all

	13-07-2002 06:30									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui See, you've gotten it all wrong. This is why the ME won't see peace in my lifetime. Because Isreael doesn't understand. If Israel 'caves', it is the ONLY way to reduce fanaticism. You can't do the other way.

I don't remember Europe caving stopping the Naziis.

I remember WWII stopping them.

quote: Hey, the British did, when they gave you up to the UN to make your state.

True.
But
a) the brittish used the same measures against jews that we use against pals today. exact same. I read brittish mandate reports.

b) jewish fighters never targetted civilians. even in king david hotel there was a warning given beforehand, and it was technically a government facility at the time.

quote: Of course it was liberation! It was taken away from the Jews and given back to the Arabs.

That is just sick.

The lebanese people live under occupation of the Syrian government. Anyone who dares speak out is jailed. Christians are persecuted.

That's like calling the Soviet conquest of east Europe liberation. It was a liberation from one tyrant into the hands of another.

Sure, to some extent it was better - but it's still occupation.

quote: That's because you still are using violence and oppresion against their brothers. Don't expect everyone to play nice while you crush them. And terrorism was happening BEFORE you left as well.

Terrorism was hapenning before we reached statehood as well, and before we occupied the territories as well.

It's there because they dont' want Jewish neighbours.

quote: Um... it's pretty easy actually. Give them their state, as agreed to in Oslo. Try to work with them on making the people richer. Then in a generation, terrorism will be something that happens very rarely.

hmm...
Give the germans a state and other european countries.
try to work with them on giving them more countries to improve their economy.
In a generation, there'd be no genocide anymore. BECAUSE ALL JEWS WILL BE DEAD.

	13-07-2002 06:31									#48
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And the reason for that would be what, Siro?

	13-07-2002 06:33									#49
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quote: Yeah, if Siro is going to try to paint Palestinians are Nazis, then I'm going to start (again) calling the Israeli state a Fascist neo-Nazi regime, that are keeping the Palestinians like the jews in ghettos in Hitler's Germany.

I'm not comapring Palestinians to nazis.

I'm comparing one form of extremism to another.

	13-07-2002 06:33									#50
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Siro: Your Nazi Germany comparison has been shown to be fallacious. Continuing to assert it will only make it fraudulent.

	13-07-2002 06:35									#51
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quote: The chance of it being done are nil while you bully them and kick sand in their faces. The only way to end the violence is to begin yourselves.

Great solution.
I'm being attacked so I'll go sit in the corner hoping it would stop.

I would do that if I were fighting a reasonable opponenent. But fanaticism, is by definition irrational and not reasonable.

	13-07-2002 06:36									#52
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quote: a) the brittish used the same measures against jews that we use against pals today. exact same. I read brittish mandate reports.

And your predessors couldn't deal with it, so they decided to kill people to make their point, and got their state.

And oh, I AM comparing Israel to the Nazis... and you, are one of them.

	13-07-2002 06:36									#53
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I swear to god some of you guys are just walking, breathing Versailles treaties...

	13-07-2002 06:36									#54
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YOU CREATED THE FANATICISM, YOU IDIOT NAZI!

	13-07-2002 06:38									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov But fanaticism, is by definition irrational and not reasonable.

And also the inability to see one's self as such.

*holds up mirror for Siro to see himself*

See?

You are just as irrational and unreasonable in your thinking as those you are against are.

	13-07-2002 06:52									#56
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Imran - it doesn't matter who created it. Once it exists it needs to be defeated.

I agree that Versailles treaty created Naziism.

But getting rid of it wasn't enough. Naziism had to be defeated as well.

	13-07-2002 06:55									#57
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Naziism could have been defeated MUCH earlier by being more concilatory. At a certain point in time it became impossible to defeat the Nazis by negotiation and diplomacy. You are coming VERY close to that that line with the Palestinians. And you seem to want to step over it.

	13-07-2002 06:56									#58
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Same thing with current terror.

two things have to be solved:

1) solving the conflict and creating a palestinian state
2) getting rid of terror.

NO IT WON'T GO AWAY ON IT'S OWN! IT NEVER DOES!

quote: And also the inability to see one's self as such. *holds up mirror for Siro to see himself* See? You are just as irrational and unreasonable in your thinking as those you are against are.

*sigh*

could you at least try to explain your claims instead of making bold assertions?

Why am I a nazi / unreasonable / what ever.

because I want to make terror obsolete?
because no matter what the problem is, i think that terror shouldn't be accepted as a solution?

	13-07-2002 06:58									#59
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You are just as unreasonable because you can only see one conquence. You are single-minded on one action where many exist. That is almost defining unreasonable.

	13-07-2002 06:58									#60
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quote: Naziism could have been defeated MUCH earlier by being more concilatory. At a certain point in time it became impossible to defeat the Nazis by negotiation and diplomacy.

Agreed.

[qYou are coming VERY close to that that line with the Palestinians. And you seem to want to step over it.[/q]
That's the difference.

I think we have stepped over this line in October 2000.