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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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What insults? Are you referring to my question of whether Chris have gotten therapy? It is a sincere question. I remember Chris's posts from 9/11, he was in NYC when it happened, IIRC. I understand his anger at the time. Frustration over not being able to lash out at the people who were repsonsible transformed into hatred of all muslims.
But the anger has festered, and since it is irrational he can get help. He must understand his problem to combat it, however. Accusing me of being a racist is just one of the symptoms.
Regarding the alleged Die Welt story, I mailed the JP post twice. I didn't mail Die Welt. Feel free to do so 
I don't really care much for Israeli propaganda pieces. CICSmaster posted it to show that he was wrong about the arab population. As I said in my reply to him, it is pretty conclusive when even an Israeli propaganda piece disagrees with a pro-Israeli point...
Note that I still asked for a reliable figure, however. Not least to point out the carefully ignored number in the posted article, i.e. the number of jews in palestine in, say, 1900.
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:20
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The most effective methods of getting someone out of your country are usually nonviolent protest and more so guerilla warfare.
Imagine how much more sympathy the palistinians would have gotten from the West if instead of blowing themselves up and killing several people, they set themselves on fire instead. All those hippie groups like Amnesty International are not going to look the other way. Even arranging sit ins or other means of nonviolent protest would be far more effective than suicide bombings. It would definitely demonstrate their feelings, and show the world that these are not just a bunch of crazy murderers who want to found a state called Murderopia.
Guerilla warfare is also quite effective though won't get you as much sympathy, but if you do it right it can. It has allowed small weaker powers to take on and boot out superpowers. The US did it to Great Britain, and Vietnam did it to the US. In neither case did they attack the home country of their enemy. That would be stupid. The whole point is to wear the superpower down until they have no further interest in your land. However, the minute you attack their homeland, they'll never let you go. Imagine if the Vietnamese someone managed to attack, invade, and burn LA. Do you think that the US would have left when it did? The Taliban was able to successfully hold back wave after wave of Soviet invaders. Yet, the minute they strike America they crumble before an enraged superpower.
Which leads us to a few possible conclusions:
1: If the Muslims (Bin Ladin and his sorts, and the Palistinians) stated goals are true, then it id quite possible that they are being ruled by suicidal idiots. Terrorism is a poor tactic in this case.
2: If they are not idiots, then their goals must be of a different nature than reclaiming holy land. A much more vicious and genocidal nature. If your plan is destroy an enemy, terrorism is a more effective tactic. However, a snake can not eat a dragon. 
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:20
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Dashi, we like to say that now, but the West pretty much ignore the Palestinians' plight for five decades. There were strikes and protests and all the non-violent stuff. No one cared, because all anyone could do was focus on the poor Jews and the evil Arabs. It wasn't until the first intifada that the world began to look at what Israel was doing to the occupied Palestinians.
We tend to view things ahistorically, without realizing there is a long history preceding the events we now have difficulty understanding.
The other thing you need to remember is that the Palestinian people believe, probably rightly, that Israel cannot be defeated militarily. They can't even hope to mount a successful guerilla war against Israel. Israel has won every war it has been in, and though Hezbolla did finally drive the Israelis out, Lebabnon was hardly as occupied or integrated as Palestine.
Not just frustration, but also the hopelessness of their cause drives them to make suicide attacks on civilians. It's the only way they can strike at their enemy.
Tactically, however, I can think of a much better way to use those suicide bombers. Instead of striking without warning. Once they have reached their target, they should anounce that they are a suicide bomb and let everyone escape. Then kill themselves. They acheive the same result of terror without the murder, and their willingness to sacrifice themselves makes them seem noble rather than cowardly.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:20
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quote:
I don't really care much for Israeli propaganda pieces. CICSmaster posted it to show that he was wrong about the arab population. As I said in my reply to him, it is pretty conclusive when even an Israeli propaganda piece disagrees with a pro-Israeli point...
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Cyber, you yourself just stated that Israeli 'Propoganda' tells the truth when it would be against their case to do so, and it helps the Palestinians as well. After which you call the Israeli media unreliable hate mongerers. Do you notice something wrong here?
Israeli newspapers are not filled with hate mongerers or whatever. Jerusalem Post may be quite right wing (I wouldn't go to the point of saying extreme), but no one there actually hates Palestinains or against them AFAIK, or at least the newspaper has never printed anything hateful.
Additionally, could you kindly find an article where the Jerusalem Post lies in some way, or even misuses the truth?
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Chris, tell me, did you get some therapy after the 9/11 events? |
No, did you?
quote:
Maybe you always had a hard time telling political opposition from racism, maybe you are just influenced by pro-israeli hatemongers reflex anti-semite accusations, but maybe the events hurt you deeper than you are aware. |
I can tell the difference, the problem is, you can't, or perhaps you'd like to explain why you cheer gleefully whenever jews are killed?  quote:
If so, you can get help. |
Your the one that needs it dear boy, and quite desperatetly.
Maybe someday you will understand Jews are people, and that they just as much right to the holy land as the arab side, and have always been willing to share it peacefully.
Maybe someday, but from your continous diatribes, highly unlikely.
For a Dutchmen to have such hatred of jews is quite unsettling, considering you come from a free society.
BTW, it's interesting on how you call your consistant anti-semitism "Politics", it reminds me of your spirtitual decendants, you remember them, they goose-stepped and wore funny arm bands.
You fit right in with them.
"Political oppostion...." 
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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Well, Chris, what you are saying would make sense if only I was anti-semitic. Alas, I am not. I am fiercly anti-zionist, however.
I don't cheer gleefully. I don't accuse the palestinians of commiting a crime when they kill someone from the Israel, however, as Israel is occupying their country. Quite a difference.
I don't expect you to get it. Seek help. I think you can even get it for free through one of the sept 11 charity programs.
Ranskaldan, I've already asked him twice.
Zevico, note the word 'even'. The most effective propaganda pieces are the ones where the lies are many and small. If they would lie about an easily verifiable thing such as population of palestine, the piece would quickly be exposed as what it is. Instead they skirt the truth, by carefully leaving out itesm such as that the jewish population of palestine was less than 25.000 (or less than 4%) in 1900. I can give you a source if you want.
As for the JP, me and Siro have been debating a quite blatant fabrication for quite a while. the headline read that 40 Al-Quida fighters had settled in palestine and were paid by Arafat. The story was written by a freelance journalist, based in London, who in turn quoted Die Welt. There are two problems here: If this story was true, it would have been carried by every single newspaper in the US. (and we would have heard the sound of cruismissiles hitting the PA offices). Second, Die Welt never reported this story in the first place.
I wrote two emails to the JP, asking them for a more definite source, but I never got a reply. Siros best defense so far is that maybe Die Welt has a smaller web-edition than their printed edition. I think this is a weak defense at best, and what remains is that the JP fabricated a headline story, AFAIK only to inflame the situation even more.
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
And I am, of course, waiting for an apology. |
Not getting one from me! 
I posted what I thought was factual. Turns out it was wrong.
I corrected that. No cause to apologise.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Well, Chris, what you are saying would make sense if only I was anti-semitic. Alas, I am not. I am fiercly anti-zionist, however. |
You crossed the line long ago, you are what your words say, you should take a good long look at yourself and what you post.
If you have any morals at all, you will be as apalled as many of us are at what you say.
It's one thing to oppose Israel's postion today, and another to deny fact and history as you do in every ME thread.
quote:
I don't cheer gleefully. I don't accuse the palestinians of commiting a crime when they kill someone from the Israel, however, as Israel is occupying their country. Quite a difference. |
Further proof that your not anti-zion, but anti-semetic.
You should really seek help.
quote:
I don't expect you to get it. Seek help. I think you can even get it for free through one of the sept 11 charity programs. |
Your continous postion that anyone who supports jews is tramtised by 9/11 is further proof of the delusional state you live in.
The person sorely in need of help goes by the name of Cybergnu, and it's a real shame you choose to be childish rather then to correct the postion you always take.
quote:
You shouldn't waste your energy on a pud like CyberGnu, Chris... it seems to me like he thinks he's the big fish in his own little bowl |
Sava, personal attacks aern't the way, we are dealing with a sick mind, the only hope is to convince him that jews are people with rights, not to insult him.
quote:
This thread needs a bit more calmness.
If CyberGnu and Chris 62 both agree to stop insulting each other, I'll join in.
(No, Chris 62, I promise I won't be insulting you here, if you do the same.) |
Nobody is looking to insult anyone ranskaldan, I was simply telling a new guy what to expect from this person, as it's always the same, he will carry on page after page, you can throw links, books, history by the ton at him, and he will call it lies and say you have presented nothing.
He's a textbook example of a closed mind, and someone that manages to turn every ME thread into something less then enjoyable.
At one time I lost my temper with him, at the time I'd assumed he was rational, and that was a serious error on my part, now I hope he will seek the counciling he so desperatly needs, and begins to understand that murder and killing, no matter waht the cause, isn't a good thing.
As you see in his last responce to me, he feels Jews lives are worthless, and that it's just fine to kill them, I hope that someday he will disperse such hateful notions.
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17-07-2002 00:57
It's really fun to treat people as if you were a superior human.
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