18-07-2002 19:22									#271
	Re: Would seeing the sea part make you believe in God? Inflate your Upload Space

In response to the question no.

quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin I think several thousand Hebrew guys seeing the sea part and let them pass, but then kill the Eygptian guys, is evidence enough. If it was a fake story, then it would die out. But you can't argue with thousands of Hebrew guys.

What bullshit! Seems like to be a myth. Absolut bullshit.

quote: Also, God destroyed 2 cities that were full of sinners. He seems to be allowing us to destroy ourselves now. Why won't people believe in Him if they don't believe thousands of people seeing something only God can do?

No we aren't destroying ourselves.

Religious people are killing themselves. Take a look at the middle east.

Anyways, I see another almighty civnation here!

	18-07-2002 19:29									#272
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Something cannot come from nothing, so the fact that we are here today should be proof enough that God is out there.

God cannot come from nothing, then. What made God?

	18-07-2002 19:34									#273
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If I ever saw a miracle, I would try to find a rational explanation to it. As it happens I haven't seen any yet.

	18-07-2002 20:03									#274
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quote: I told you that before. In fact it's a technical rephrase of the question "how can something pop out of nothing" It is impossible to prove the theory, because we can never observe 'nothing'. Vacuum is not nothing. Even complete empty vacuum is not nothing.

The whole idea of a vacuum energy density is based on virtual particles. Without virtual particles there doesn't exist a vacuum energy density.

The Casimir effect Jakko referenced relied on the vacuum energy density to prove the existence of virtual particles.

quote: And about postive and negative energy summed up together give zero energy.......... That's a nice theory, but even in that case you need an extern source to split zero energy in X positive and X negative energy. Why would it split with no reason?

First off, I believe you're confusing the creation of particles during inflation (which I don't really consider "something for nothing"), and the creation of virtual particles.

During the creation of a particle/anti-particle pair, energy is required. Particles can't literally come out of 0 energy without an energy surplus in the first place. However, particles close together have less gravitational potential energy than particles far apart, which was the source of energy to create the particles in our universe.

But in the case of virtual particles, the energy is "borrowed" for extraordinarily short times due to the HUP, so no other source of energy is required.

quote: It only answers the question HOW God created all this out of nothing, by splitting up positive and negative energy.

Whatever. I don't care what you believe, as long as you don't spout ignorant BS like the universe necessitating God, or denying well-observed physical processes.

	18-07-2002 20:03									#275
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin "God also sent two airplanes into the World Trade Center." God loves us and he would never, ever do that! He does, however, work in mysterious ways we cannot comprehend. A lot of Muslims should realize they are wrong and turn to the truth. A lot of good can come from the WTC disaster, so you should never give up hope.

He did it to Sodom and Gomorrah, why not to NYC?

After all, the people in NYC are sleazy sinners wasting their lives.

A lot of religious elitists should realize they're wasting their time.

	18-07-2002 20:13									#276
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quote: [SIZE=1] ...given 'poly's large pool of trolls, I tend to think this was one. Accordingly: 7/10, for number responses and amusement value. -Arrian

Having skimmed the 5 pages since I posted this, I'm gonna have to up my rating to 8.5/10, based upon thread longevity and continuing amusement value.

-Arrian

	18-07-2002 20:55									#277
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quote: Gays are sinners. Simple as that. But I'm not going to "throw the first stone" here. I know that if they are sorry for their sins Jesus will forgive them. God is very forgiving, and people like you should be grateful.

uh... wait... didn't you just judge gays, and hence cast the first stone?

quote: So? If you scientists believe mammoths were hunted out, why not dinosaurs? And since when does believing in God make you an idiot? I think you are an idiot if you don't believe in God.

er... see, dinosaurs and humans didn't live in the same time period... the fossil record doesn't support it.
besides, humans wouldn't have stood a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a chance against velociraptors and the like...

quote: you're not an idiot for believing in God, you're an idiot for thinking that "because this is what I believe, that's why" stands up in an argument.

good job, orange.

quote: But what I believe is the truth. That is why it stands up in an arguement.

see... you've got this problem with circular logic. belief == truth. the greeks believed that there was no number that equalled the square root of two, and accepted it as truth-- yet it was proved only a few years later that there can indeed be a number that is equal to the square root of two.
your argument follows this path:
what i believe is true --> therefore, everything else is wrong --> everthing else is wrong because what i believe is true --> because what i believe is true, everything else is wrong --> everything else is wrong because what i believe is true --> (ad infinitum.)
such arguments rarely manage to convince anyone.

quote: And I am quite certain that you guys have shown that you are not Christian.

you know what? you're right. none of us are christian.
instead, a lot of us just believe that there is one god, father almighty... that jesus was begotten of the father, born of the virgin mary, and became man, and that for our sake he was crucified under pontius pilate, suffered, died, and was buried... that on the third day he rose again, in fulfillment of the scriptures... that there is a holy spirit, who has spoken through the prophets and with the father and the son is worshipped and glorified... and that the bible, being largly symbolic, may be accurate in a lot of moral matters, is not a text we should be basing our science and our technology upon.
damn, you've caught us at our game...

quote: If you guys don't live to serve God, are you those science guys that want to freeze their bodies in tubes to live forever? That baseball player was one of "them." I think that is bogus. Everyone dies and goes to his proper place.

DON'T YOU DARE INSULT TED WILLIAMS!
it was his bastardo son who decided he should be frozen; ted williams himself would have wanted a cremation.

======

***do you guys now understand why we will not ever be able to deal with terrorists? most fundamentalists who are terrorists are so adamant about their beliefs that they will refuse all the evidence to the contrary that what they are doing is not what is right or the truth; indeed, the original muslims were rather tolerant, and had no problem with christian pilgrimages. but now? the extremists are so focused on what they believe to be true that they are unwilling to even make the smallest concession in regards to how illogical their thought processes might be.

besides, proving god's existence is "easy": he hasn't been proven not to exist, therefore, he must exist.

	18-07-2002 21:06									#278
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quote: besides, proving god's existence is "easy": he hasn't been proven not to exist, therefore, he must exist.

I have also seen that arbitrary statement many times before around here... civnation is one guess....

I am atheist, I staunchly don't believe in god or any almighty stuff, I respect other opinions though.

My rating on this thread 9 out of 10, not a 10 out of 10 Civvie Classic but awfully close.

	18-07-2002 21:29									#279
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fez, and others: just to be clear:

that proof is lifted from a provost zakharov quote in smac; and it's not one i believe, either.

	19-07-2002 02:15									#280
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quote: there is a God out there, regardless of how the universe was made

A priori assumptions, gotta love 'em.

quote: Even in a singularity, gravity is there. If gravity wasn't there, then light could escape from a black hole.

Stuff does escape black holes, thanks again to our wonderful friends (that pop uncaused out of nothing) virtual particles since one of the virtual particle pair get sucked into the hole and the other leaves the area so they don't self-annihilate like they usually do.

quote: What do you know? You tell me how the universe was created.

A few thousand years ago people didn't know how volcanos works, that doesn't mean it was rational for them to listen to people telling them how they were caused by gods puking.

quote: If physics break down in singularities, forget about them ever making a universe.

Try listening to people, its not physics, its all our theories about physics.

quote: You know, there IS something in the Loch Ness lake.

For he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall believe anything.

quote: God loves us and he would never, ever do that!

Aaaah so we would kill every single person in the entire earth except one family and command his followers to commit genocide (canaanites amelikites etc. etc.) but wouldn't stand for one plane crash, hmmmmm.

quote: If you don't live for God, then what are you doing with your life?

This sort of philosophy really scares me. How can you possibily see nothing in life worth living for? Come on! Puppies are cute and curry tastes good!

quote: Maybe he made 2 pairs of humans and called them both Adam and Eve because he liked those names. Does it matter?

Apologetic contortions are always fun to watch. Isn't it a hell of a lot likely that the Isrealis and the Judeans had their own versions of the greaton myth and the compilers in genesis stuck both versions in when they conflicted so as not to annoy anyone (this happens a lot in the Pentatuch (sp?)).

quote: The Bible is not wrong. In fact, you will not find any contradictions.

hmmmmmm, BAM v2.0?

quote: quantum mechanics is a THEORY that has not been proven

There's expirmental evidence that we know of no other explanation for than Quantum Mechanics (for example Young's parallel plate experiment where some pressure was exerted between two plates by virtual particles, ie the Casimir effect). Thus while its not proven you can't dismiss it with statements like "we no that matter can't come from nothing, therefore god did it."

quote: Didn't someone say that has to do with time?

No.

quote: Don't try to put a silly theory or law of physics above God and what he does.

Hard to put something above something that doesn't exist.

	19-07-2002 02:17									#281
	Remove this text

"Sir Bedimir, explain to me again how sheeps bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes." - Monty Python

	19-07-2002 03:33									#282
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Errr… Allah, Yaweh, God are all the same… The difference is in which prophet do you believe was correct.

	19-07-2002 05:22									#283
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quote: Bedimir

Bedevere

	19-07-2002 05:28									#284
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Some of those "errors" like Christ coming in "a short time" depend on how patient you are. Compared to how old you guys think the earth is, 2000 years is nothing.

Sorry, but you can't use our argument to justify yours. All you achieve is to justify ours!

It's sad to see that your not trolling, as then we could easily ignore you. Still, this is a waste of time, as you provide absolutely *zero* evidence or arguments for your belief. If you had been around longer, you would have seen the creationist threads that were absolutely shot down in flames by the enourmous weight of opposing arguments and evidence.

Believe whatever you like, but when you try and ram your opinion down our throats, you invite opposing arguments. Until you start being rational and consider alternative opinions, you will continue to be a laughing stock.

	19-07-2002 05:36									#285
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin I'm not elitist. Everyone is welcome to become a Christian. However, these intellectuals that value their mental skills cannot make themselves smarter. They just think they are great because they are a little faster than everyone else. It's selfish to think you are great because you know some science or math others don't. It seems that science has taken the place of religion for some people. Science is great, but setting it on the place of God is a horrible blasphemy.

If science can't explain god, what can? We aren't elitist, because we encourage everyone to look at what is testable and provable as fact, and what is devoid of any empirical evidence as not. Knowledge may be no susbtitute for intelligence, but intelligence without knowledge is intelligence wasted.

You can't understand why we question the bible, but why would a god make us intelligent enough to question his existence but to instead believe him blindly? He could have made horses believe him blindly and left us on the drawing board for being as potentially troublesome as we proved to be.

	19-07-2002 06:44									#286
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would do a BAM of Ras with pictures like this but he's just not as much fun as Gian and Civie

Attachment: crazy.jpg
This has been downloaded 33 time(s).

	19-07-2002 06:53									#287
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Please, do not make fun of Christian Rock. I know it sucks. It has potential, but the guys that try to make Christian Rock focus too much on the lyrics and meaning than the music itself. It will get better, and not everyone that goes to the concerts looks like that. Come on.

	19-07-2002 06:56									#288
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We're still waiting.....

	19-07-2002 06:57									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko would do a BAM of Ras with pictures like this but he's just not as much fun as Gian and Civie

Three blocks next to that you would see me puking seeing such a horrible site...

Christian rock must be banned!

Errr... I play too much tropico... decree this... decree that... supress those people... arrest a priest.... order soliders to eliminate some more religious nuts....

	19-07-2002 07:00									#290
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Actually, when you look at the shape music is in today, Christian Rock isn't so bad! As opposed to the bad guys like Britney Spears, etc. Is it ok to say you like her music but not her? Doesn't seem right.

	19-07-2002 07:02									#291
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quote: not everyone that goes to the concerts looks like that

I know, the picture was far too funny to resist though

quote: Is it ok to say you like her music

No, no it isn't. Hell, even my little sister hates her

*turns up Above This World, some fine fine metalcore*

	19-07-2002 07:03									#292
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Actually, when you look at the shape music is in today, Christian Rock isn't so bad! As opposed to the bad guys like Britney Spears, etc. Is it ok to say you like her music but not her? Doesn't seem right.

I hate Britney Spears as much as I hate Christian rock. And Britney Spears is bad... but a guy? That would be some more music I would ban along with Christian Rock.

	19-07-2002 07:12									#293
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I think God has a good hearty laugh at threads like this, and everyone in them.

To quote the old testament.

As the heavens are above the earth are my ways above above your ways, my thoughts above your thoughts.

	19-07-2002 07:13									#294
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Her "Oops, I did it again" song is very catchy. I bet all of you hardcore athiest metalheads listen to her in private. God, metal has to be the worst garbage to happen to music, and that doesn't even include the satanic references hidden in the records.

	19-07-2002 07:19									#295
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Well Christian rock is one of the best arguments for atheism that I can think of

But God definitely has a wicked (excuse the pun, he he) sense of humour. Take Eclesiastes where it says God "put eternity in men's minds" but in such a way that they could never comprehend it.

This is the real dilemna of people like Jack the Bodiless. God is toying with them.

	19-07-2002 07:23									#296
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edit: dp

	19-07-2002 07:23									#297
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quote: God, metal has to be the worst garbage to happen to music, and that doesn't even include the satanic references hidden in the records.

Musically a lot of metal's fairly decent, but all the blather about fallen angels, vampires, and whatnot gets on my nerves (and no the references to satan are generally quite blatant not hidden ), that's why I stick to punk mostly, metalcore is hardcore punk with a bit of metal influence, not metal. Know your music before you bash is

*turns up Bane, some very fine straight edge hardcore punk*

	19-07-2002 08:24									#298
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quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Her "Oops, I did it again" song is very catchy. I bet all of you hardcore athiest metalheads listen to her in private. God, metal has to be the worst garbage to happen to music, and that doesn't even include the satanic references hidden in the records.

Again a general overstatement.

Not all atheists listen to heavy metal bands... and your statements are the most idiotical and arbitrary I have seen yet. I listen to the Rolling Stones, thank you very much.

As an atheist, I am disgusted at your statements.

	19-07-2002 08:32									#299
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Actually, Sabbath (the first - and one of the greatest - metal bands) has some pretty good Christian-preachy-type songs.

And "Spirit in the Sky," (damn, forgot who made that ) of course, is a great song.

On the whole though, Christian Rock is abnormally crappy.

	19-07-2002 08:42									#300
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Hey Rass, that's several pages of counter argument you've decided to ignore, in coming to the defence of 'Christian Rock' - I take it you admit defeat!

Now, if God created everything on this planet as you claim I'm assuming he created such things as:

AIDS
Parasites such as Fleas, Ticks, Tsetse Flies, Chiggers etc
Other Diseases like Ebola, Cancer, TB, Malaria, Cataracts etc
The whole Predator and Prey thing, where say a Lion viciously takes down and brutally kills a Wildebeest in the name of nature - 'Survival of the Fittest' must logically be one of God's credos. He and Hitler seem to see eye to eye in so many ways...

So, if God exists - he's not a very nice deity at all!

After all, would you like to die from Leprosy - what a horrible way to go? Before you say those that catch the diseases etc deserve it, Father Damian in Molokai spent years tending Leprosy sufferers before catching it and dying himself...

God doesn't appear to give a Sh*t about his 'creations'!