18-07-2002 09:35									#31
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I think the unit stats look good, at least as a starting point. As you said, a lot of playtesting will be needed to get them just right. Now all you need is the new editor...

	18-07-2002 09:40									#32
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I didn't see advanced infantry on the main post. What exactly are "advanced infantry"? Just highly trained infantry? Like elite infantry kinda?

Kman

Maybe you could make a northern segregated unit. And since they were black, who we all know are superior ro whites, physically speaking, you should give them like 10 attack, 14 defense and since they are really fast runners, 6 movement points .

	18-07-2002 09:43									#33
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I think Advanced Infantry is the same as "Veterans" or "Repeating Infantry", just another attempt at naming the unnameable unit.

	18-07-2002 09:47									#34
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I think they should be called ninjas..... or..... how about carbine riflemen (the repeaters were carbines after all).
I think that has a decent ring to it.

Kman

	18-07-2002 09:52									#35
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How about just "Carbines"?

@ the 'Poly server and how it reacts to editing... it takes about 10 minutes for it to go through to edit the main page.

	18-07-2002 10:13									#36
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That'll work

	18-07-2002 20:18									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Hehe, you're right. But I wish there was some way to 'run through' the ideal soldier population, then the soldier quality begins to decrease as the war goes on (especially in the South). Any suggestions? If not, I'll probably just eliminate the unit

You could have the units upgrade to weaker ones, if you do that I would have it so the weaker unts come with a tech that also gives you somthing usefull so it dosn't get skiped

	18-07-2002 21:11									#38
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Observation balloons, confederate commerce Raiders, and a few "one only" units would be good.

For one only units- Stonewall Brigade- confederate inf with very good maneuverability.

Iron Brigade- High attack Unio Inf

Siege Mortars could have a range of 3

Make the rebel cavalry more mobile, higher attack than union.

Repeating rifles were a rarity in the civil war. Not sure what to call your unit, but it should reflect the few units which were very well supplied. Draft should yield units that are low quality, even at regular experience.

That's just a few quick thoughts.

	18-07-2002 21:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Level You could have the units upgrade to weaker ones, if you do that I would have it so the weaker unts come with a tech that also gives you somthing usefull so it dosn't get skiped

Hmmmm. I'm not sure exactly if this would work. Since infantry units are the mainstay of both armies, if the quality of these troops were diminished by a tech (no matter what else it provides), then I'm sure people would never want to research it. I think the way I currently have things is best, but thanks for the idea.

quote: Observation balloons, confederate commerce Raiders, and a few "one only" units would be good. For one only units- Stonewall Brigade- confederate inf with very good maneuverability. Iron Brigade- High attack Unio Inf Siege Mortars could have a range of 3 Make the rebel cavalry more mobile, higher attack than union. Repeating rifles were a rarity in the civil war. Not sure what to call your unit, but it should reflect the few units which were very well supplied. Draft should yield units that are low quality, even at regular experience. That's just a few quick thoughts.

Since the new editor allows you to name units, things like "Stonewall's Brigade" are very possible.

As far as changing actual unit stats like Rebel VS Union Cavalry, Ed brought up a very good point against this. The unit stats are basically representations of the technological composition of the unit. Confederate Cavarly possessed the same technology as Union Cavalry, so the only difference would be experience (which is currently how I think I'll represent things).

As far as a range 3 artillery unit, the Rifled Artillery already has that, representing the greater range and accuracy.

The balloons I'm still thinking about. I'm not sure if I'll be able to find a graphic for it, and it's not like I can fudge with another one a little bit and make it look similar.

And like I said before, the Rebel commerce raiders would be useless in this scenario since there is no way to propery represent trade and finance. They would just be fast little boats that couldn't get anything done.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

	18-07-2002 23:26									#40
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I've made all of the art/animation files and created the appropriate folders. Once I'm ready to release the first verison of the full scenario, I'll be able to package the "Modifying" unit and leader graphics into a .ZIP file, along with an "Undo" .ZIP that will undo the changes done by the first .ZIP. People will be able to simply extract the file into their Civ 3 folder and everything will be completed. Of course, there might be a couple bugs so before release I'll need to have it tested thoroughly to make sure there aren't any things I've missed.

	18-07-2002 23:59									#41
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quote: And like I said before, the Rebel commerce raiders would be useless in this scenario since there is no way to propery represent trade and finance. They would just be fast little boats that couldn't get anything done.

You could make it a hidden nationality unit.... but I guess that would be pretty pointless if the two sides are already at war.... Though if you have more cives, like various indian nations, then you could make a hidden nationality land unit (probably for the confederates) so they can try and provoke a war between the Union and Indians, which I believ they did try to do in the North West.

Kman

	19-07-2002 00:01									#42
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You could also have British colonies in Canada whith whom the Americans could trade with. I just posted this instead of editing cause the editing takes to friggin long. And Im hingry... so there...

Kman

	19-07-2002 00:06									#43
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IIRC, aren't there problems with the hidden nationality thing where you could still tell which civ the units were from?

I might or might not add the British in Canada. Their presence would be merey aesthetic however. Indian tribes would be difficult, since it's not Civ 2 where you can build a city anywhere, but Indian cities would have culture and borders, which would make them hard to include. It would play tricks with the map also.

And I know what you mean about the editing stuff... once when I was updating the initial summary post yesterday, it took 15 minutes of pressing F5 in order for it to go through. And I'm hungry too so I understand.

	19-07-2002 00:43									#44
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Without triggers or diplomacy, adding the British might not be a good idea. The British civ could suddenly decide to declare war against the Union or Confederates, thus throwing off the balance of the game.

	19-07-2002 01:35									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Trip How about just "Carbines"?

I´m pretty sure Carbines were only used by the cavalry and not the Infantry...

why not call em Musketmen and then Riflemen?

	19-07-2002 02:24									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Fatwreck why not call em Musketmen and then Riflemen?

They already were using muzzle loading rifles at the beginning of the war. Maybe they can be called "Carbiners" or "Breechloaders".

	19-07-2002 02:34									#47
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Correct me if I´m wrong but as I stated i my previous post: Was´nt carbines only used by the cavalry?

Anyway why not just call them Early Conf./Union Riflemen and Late Conf./Union Riflemen or Riflemen and Adv. Riflemen?

And Trip I must insist do not increase Offfence as much as Defence on the later ones, attacking was VERY hard especially during the later years (ask Grant who had to outnumber the Rebs at least 2 to 1 to bee able to win the war)

I´m counting on you Trip

BTW go D/L the new patch right now at firaxis.com!!!

	19-07-2002 02:35									#48
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I like the look and feel of this mod, but have some questions:

* How will the South's Leadership advantages be manifested? Will they start with a GL and 1 or more armies?

* How will certain famous (and infamous) units be manifested (saw this being discussed earlier)? One possible way might be to create an entirely new class of unit, tech dependent, on a tech that no one has, and use the new editor to place a few of those "super units" on the map at game start. That way, they're pure gold. Irreplacable and--with the right stats--awe inspiring (I'm thinking in terms of Jackson's Foot Cavalry as but one example (make them a souped up infantry that treats all terrain as roads....perhaps there are only three units of this in the whole game, all in an army on the side of the south at game start...that'd be sweet). Similar things could be done to model the Iron Brigade, the 20th Maine (which saw some truly classic--and fierce--small scale action at Gettysburg), Forrest's Raiders, Steuart's Cavalry....many, many others....

-=Vel=-
(watching with interest!)

	19-07-2002 03:41									#49
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Ick... the lack of objectives, diplomacy, etc. will make things very difficult. Hopefully Gramps can get something good going with the CMT to help fix this.

I'll address the suggestions soon, after I'm done placing cities and units.

	19-07-2002 05:08									#50
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Another idea would be to make two different worker units, Federal & Confederate. The Federal unit would be a regular worker and the Confederate wouldn't be able to make railroads. This would represent the lack of ironworks (Richmond's Tredgar Works not withstanding) in the Confederacy. So that means that the only way the Confederates could make railroads is to steal a Federal worker, thus making raider units that much more important. Just a thought...

Last edited by trevor on 19-07-2002 at 06:18

	19-07-2002 07:10									#51
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quote: Originally posted by trevor Another idea would be to make two different worker units, Federal & Confederate. The Federal unit would be a regular worker and the Confederate wouldn't be able to make railroads. This would represent the lack of ironworks (Richmond's Tredgar Works not withstanding) in the Confederacy. So that means that the only way the Confederates could make railroads is to steal a Federal worker, thus making raider units that much more important. Just a thought...

Good idea, and realistic too.
I'll have to playtest that though... don't want to give the North too many advantages now, it may be hard enough for the South to win as it is.

Progress report:
All of the cities and most of the tile improvements have been added to the map. I'm going to run an initial test run to see if everything works good, and if so, I'll probably finish up all of the tile improvements by the end of today. Tomorrow morning I'll probably start working on units.

	19-07-2002 07:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by trevor Another idea would be to make two different worker units, Federal & Confederate. The Federal unit would be a regular worker and the Confederate wouldn't be able to make railroads. This would represent the lack of ironworks (Richmond's Tredgar Works not withstanding) in the Confederacy. So that means that the only way the Confederates could make railroads is to steal a Federal worker, thus making raider units that much more important. Just a thought...

It's a good idea, but I'm not sure this would work. I don't believe that you can capture units that you do not have the technology to build. For example, if your opponent has Metallurgy and you don't, you can't capture your opponent's cannons--they'll simply be destroyed instead.

Fatwreck:

Carbines were used primarily by the cavalry, but mainly because they didn't come into use until later in the war and were relatively scarce. If the war had continued on past 1865, it is likely that more and more infantry units would have been equipped with repeaters as the weapon's advantages became more apparent and as more repeaters became available. So, repeating rifle could be a late game technology that allows an advanced infantry unit to be built. Just an idea, anyways...

	19-07-2002 08:03									#53
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good point, Ed, maybe it wouldn't work afterall. Eh, as is life. Trip I'd be happy to help if I still can.

	19-07-2002 08:31									#54
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You should allow settlers to simulate westward expansion and allow the players to have more control of their respective side's destiny, but make their pop cost real high, like 4 or 5 citizens or something. As for Indians, you could just make them barabrians who use warriors (stats edited of course), mounted warriors, and if the new editor allows more than 2 barbarian units, I downloaded a cool horse archer at civ fanatics that they could use too.

Kman

Last edited by Kramerman on 19-07-2002 at 08:36

	19-07-2002 08:34									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ed O'War It's a good idea, but I'm not sure this would work. I don't believe that you can capture units that you do not have the technology to build. For example, if your opponent has Metallurgy and you don't, you can't capture your opponent's cannons--they'll simply be destroyed instead.

The south would have the tech that the northern unit would have, only the southern worker units wouldn't have the build railroad flag checked in the editor. I think this would work, and it is a good idea.

	19-07-2002 09:18									#56
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Hmmm. IIRC, if you 'capture' a unit that you can't build naturally, then it's always destroyed. So since the South can't build Northern "RailRoad" Workers, I'm afraid that it would always be destroyed if you tried to capture one. I'll have to test that though since I'm not 100% sure about that.

Anyways, back to the scenario.

I've run into a big problem. The scenario doesn't want to load the two civs correctly. It always defaults to the Union side when both civs should be playable, except your opponent is listed on the right as the Confederates, but you have no choice of which civ. And another problem is that either side can build any unit (even if it's a UU you shouldn't have... all Union cities were producing "Confederate Raiders", for some reason), and the whole thing is messed up. I tried making it so that only the Confederates are playable, and you get the Southern cities and the name "Confederate States of America", but all your cities are blue instead of grey, and your leader is "President Lincoln of the Confederates"... I'm thoroughly confused, and I've tried every combo of scenario and player settings, and the thing is still messed up. Hopefully I can talk to the Firaxians tomorrow about it. I think all the problems are related, but I can't be sure.

I didn't get a chance to finish the tile improvements yet (since I was trying to fix that huge problem), so I'll do that and the units in the morning.

As always, all help, advice and suggestions are welcome.

	19-07-2002 10:40									#57
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Another thing about the workers is that the AI has to have all the worker flags checked.

	19-07-2002 14:06									#58
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Looks good, Trip!
I read a whole batch of Harry Turtledove novels on holiday, so I'm in a very civil war-ish mood.

Hee hee, maybe I should add in confederate infantry armed with AK-47s...

	19-07-2002 17:58									#59
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Glad people are so interested.

While trying to fix that big problem, it seems that I somehow deleted all of the North's cities. Back to the drawing board.

	19-07-2002 20:47									#60
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Alright. I re-did all of the cities, and here's the mini-map view of the map currently...
I don't think I'll go further west, since it will simply be more needless micromanagement and anything further west didn't have much impact on the war.

Attachment: minimapdemoobj.jpg
This has been downloaded 108 time(s).

Last edited by Trip on 19-07-2002 at 22:54