18-07-2002 03:38									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Better yet why don't we make all TV shows about Christian Family values so everybody is happy?!

still attacking strawmen I see

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:38									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller no it is apporiate for those who are older in the US now I see no reason for those in the US age 2-4 to deal with HIV you are being rediculous and attacking strawmen you have created grow up Jon Miller

But Jon it's not relevant to me. I'm never going go get HIV, right? I have the mentality of a 2 year old, and you discriminate against me repeatedly!

Christian Family Values.
Tolerance.

	18-07-2002 03:40									#33
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I am totally disgusted that my children may be open to such an issue on a children's programme. It is stealing a child's innocence. Why not include child pornography and a paedophile vicar? Surely these issues affect children just as much. These stupid PC decisions come from middle class morons that are totally removed from society. I want to save my little girl from the horrors of the streets; I don't expect to sit her down in front of the real world, not just yet! - Simon Doderer, England

my statement was somewhat different

I agree with the last sentence though

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:41									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Asher But Jon it's not relevant to me. I'm never going go get HIV, right? I have the mentality of a 2 year old, and you discriminate against me repeatedly! Christian Family Values. Tolerance.

you are not making any sense

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:41									#35
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Are you one of those people who explains to children that when someone dies, they're actually on vacation in Australia?

	18-07-2002 03:42									#36
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quote: my statement was somewhat different

Hardly. You use all the same arguments.

	18-07-2002 03:42									#37
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I don't see anyone suggesting that we have a series of eboli Muppets

or muppets who have had extreme radiation or the like

where is your tolerance?

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:43									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Are you one of those people who explains to children that when someone dies, they're actually on vacation in Australia?

no

but I do not go into gory detail

get real, read what I wrote, quit attacking strawmen

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:44									#39
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quote: I don't see anyone suggesting that we have a series of eboli Muppets or muppets who have had extreme radiation or the like where is your tolerance?

Jon, do you see anyone here objecting to that?

	18-07-2002 03:45									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Hardly. You use all the same arguments.

my understand is that her statemetn was in refernce to the aformentioned article

which it is a moronic reply to

also, my statemtn did not have the initial moronic rantings

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:45									#41
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HIV positive doesn't mean you are dying. In fact, you can't even see if someone is HIV positive by anything on the outside (unlike your moronic examples). Only when it turns from HIV to full blown AIDS the effects become visible.

HIV+ isn't the same as AIDS.

It seems like your education on this matter is rather limited as well. Maybe you should watch the South African Sesame Street some time as well.

	18-07-2002 03:45									#42
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HIV in young children is more fulminant than in adults. Before the introduction of antiretroviral drugs the average life expectancy of a child born with HIV was only 3 to 5 years as opposed to the average life expectancy of 10 to 15 years for an adult. I'm not sure how much drug treatment has changed the life expectancy of children born with HIV, though it has been determined that with aggressive perinatal treatment the rate of transmission from mother ot child can be dramatically reduced.

If a kid in an African school has a classmate who is HIV positive then HIV is very much an issue because that kid is going to be saying good bye to his little friend soon, because few South African kids are going to have access to state of the art treatment. Like I said, in little kids the prognosis is worse because the infection interferes with the maturation of their immune system. Without treatment they will develop AIDS by age 3 to 4 and will die within one year.

IIRC in the article about the puppet that I read it was stated that the doll would be used to teach children about HIV infection, how it spreads and how to prevent it. If they follow the advice of the Durban Conference on AIDS that means teaching abstinence. I don't see how any Conservative could be bothered by that.

	18-07-2002 03:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller no but I do not go into gory detail

You seem to think they're going into gory detail on HIV on this show?

quote: get real, read what I wrote, quit attacking strawmen Jon Miller

It's only a strawman because I'm exaggerating the stupidity of your argument.

If you don't want your kids to learn about tolerating people with HIV, don't let them watch the show. Isn't that what your V-chips are for?

Don't let your politicians force that opinion on everyone else. "get real" indeed.

	18-07-2002 03:46									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Asher quote: I don't see anyone suggesting that we have a series of eboli Muppets or muppets who have had extreme radiation or the like where is your tolerance? Jon, do you see anyone here objecting to that?

I don't see anyone demanding it either

and if you thik that that is proper children's fair, then you are a moron

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:48									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus HIV positive doesn't mean you are dying. In fact, you can't even see if someone is HIV positive by anything on the outside (unlike your moronic examples). Only when it turns from HIV to full blown AIDS the effects become visible. HIV+ isn't the same as AIDS. It seems like your education on this matter is rather limited as well. Maybe you should watch the South African Sesame Street some time as well.

I know perfectly well the difference between AIDS and HIV

it is the concepts if you are having a hard time

and I support the African Sesame Street

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:48									#46
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The reason for creating the muppet is to show kids that their HIV+ classmates are normal people to, and that you won't get infected from playing with them.

	18-07-2002 03:49									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I don't see anyone demanding it either and if you thik that that is proper children's fair, then you are a moron Jon Miller

I don't think we should have the government ban talking about some of the realities of life.

Whether or not you think it's appropriate isn't relevant here, POLITICIANS are trying to LEGISLATE it to be off the air. THAT is wrong.

Whether you want your kid to watch it or not is UP TO YOU. You should not let an unattended 2-4 year old child watch TV anyway.

	18-07-2002 03:50									#48
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quote: You should not let an unattended 2-4 year old child watch TV anyway.

Parents these days

	18-07-2002 03:52									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You seem to think they're going into gory detail on HIV on this show? It's only a strawman because I'm exaggerating the stupidity of your argument. If you don't want your kids to learn about tolerating people with HIV, don't let them watch the show. Isn't that what your V-chips are for? Don't let your politicians force that opinion on everyone else. "get real" indeed.

why do they need to learn to tolerate HIV?

they don't even need to deal with it

I have no problem with my kids tolerating HIV

I ave a problem kids currently (in the US) learning about the issues relating to HIV, when that is not soemthing they need to deal with

they do need to deal with it in Africa, so it is good there

we do not need to deal with it here (At that age, just like people of that age do not need to deal with concerns relating to terrorist attacks and biological warfare and nuclear warfare and rape and all the other bad things in life)

it is not something they are going to run itno, so there is no need for them to learn about it (once mre for those of you having troubles understanding, I am refering to the US)

Childrens phsychies are well known to be fragile, putting stresses on them (Which are not needed) is a bad thing

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:53									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The reason for creating the muppet is to show kids that their HIV+ classmates are normal people to, and that you won't get infected from playing with them.

But, AIDs should frighten kids. If there is a puppet that seems to be able to carry on a normal life after becoming infected, wouldn't this lessen the fear?

	18-07-2002 03:53									#51
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Jon Miller, please start using period. There's something more than slightly off-putting in your posting style, and I think that lack of use of period is the main part of it.

Also, the Republican senators are just being stupid here. Complaining about HIV-positive muppet in ANOTHER FRICKING COUNTRY doesn't sound like a positive, uplifting activity.

But this takes the cake:

quote: These stupid PC decisions come from middle class morons that are totally removed from society

This man must be -so- not-removed from the South African society.

	18-07-2002 03:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't think we should have the government ban talking about some of the realities of life. Whether or not you think it's appropriate isn't relevant here, POLITICIANS are trying to LEGISLATE it to be off the air. THAT is wrong. Whether you want your kid to watch it or not is UP TO YOU. You should not let an unattended 2-4 year old child watch TV anyway.

it is sesame street

publicly funded in the US

so under US legislation

(and I agree on the unattended thing, but many people do)

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Jon Miller, please start using period. There's something more than slightly off-putting in your posting style, and I think that lack of use of period is the main part of it. Also, the Republican senators are just being stupid here. Complaining about HIV-positive muppet in ANOTHER FRICKING COUNTRY doesn't sound like a positive, uplifting activity. But this takes the cake: This man must be -so- not-removed from the South African society.

I agree that Republic Senators and the ranter are being morons. I just mentioned that I would agree with them respect to the US and my position gets attacked (mostly by strawmen arguments).

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 03:57									#54
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There is a children's song, "Ring around the poises" that was intended to remind them of the black death. It ends with "We all fall down." The symbolism is clear. The black death was to be feared.

	18-07-2002 03:58									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller it is sesame street publicly funded in the US so under US legislation (and I agree on the unattended thing, but many people do) Jon Miller

We're talking about the South African show specifically, which you apparently are in agreement about.

So I was talking on a more general scope, not just related to PBS shows.

Since from the sound of it, the Republican Senators don't want HIV in any shows watched by kids under 12?

	18-07-2002 04:00									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller it is sesame street publicly funded in the US so under US legislation (and I agree on the unattended thing, but many people do) Jon Miller

Sesame street is alos apparently sold to many countries throughout the world, so the question is: who owns the production company? Is it owned by PBS, or does PBS simply buy its product? If the production company is privately owned then I don't believe that the Senators have a leg to stand on.

	18-07-2002 04:01									#57
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quote: I ave a problem kids currently (in the US) learning about the issues relating to HIV, when that is not soemthing they need to deal with they do need to deal with it in Africa, so it is good there

Head in the sand approach huh? It isn't an Africa-only problem you know.

quote: publicly funded in the US so under US legislation

They could very well run it without US subsidies. It's popular worldwide.

BTW, isn't the Jim Henson company owner of Sesame Street? (though I think that company was bought by some supermajor).

quote: my position gets attacked (mostly by strawmen arguments).

You don't have any arguments that hold ground.

	18-07-2002 04:01									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There is a children's song, "Ring around the poises" that was intended to remind them of the black death. It ends with "We all fall down." The symbolism is clear. The black death was to be feared.

and they had to deal with it then

now we do not

and the children that sing it have no clue about it meaning

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 04:03									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Head in the sand approach huh? It isn't an Africa-only problem you know. They could very well run it without US subsidies. It's popular worldwide. BTW, isn't the Jim Henson company owner of Sesame Street? (though I think that company was bought by some supermajor). You don't have any arguments that hold ground.

are you saying it is an issues that kids of the ager2-4 need to deal with here?

you are a loony

8 or 9 is a good age, currently

if it become a problem such that kids 2-6 are hearing about it in their everyday life (even if only 10% of kids that age), than it will be time for it to be on telivision for them

Jon Miller

	18-07-2002 04:03									#60
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quote: and they had to deal with it then now we do not

Head in the sand again.

You think it isn't an issue in the USA?