18-07-2002 05:30									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Imran - last I checked we were talking about Africa, not "the US and Europe"...

	18-07-2002 05:39									#92
	Got spare money?

quote: Imran - last I checked we were talking about Africa, not "the US and Europe"...

Um... no... last I checked we were talking about US and Europe and gotten past this Africa discussion.

	18-07-2002 05:44									#93
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Um... no... last I checked we were talking about US and Europe and gotten past this Africa discussion.

The US/Europe discussion is talking about the GOVERNMENT's role in determining if they're allowed to have HIV characters on a kids show or not.

For some reason people love going on and on about their morals and their opinion of it, and nobody is addressing the issue of the State overstepping its bounds and imposing its morals on others.

	18-07-2002 05:45									#94
	Remove this text

quote: It may be one thing teach kids not to fear the one infected. It is quite another to teach them that HIV is not really harmful.

Well, I dont exactly think it's teaching that is harmless. In the context of what's going on in africa, I think it's a good iidea to teach kids that HIV is not transmissible casually, and that stigmatization is wrong and unfair.

Similiarly, if a situation arose in the US where a disease, perhaps a virus-borne leukemia, was affecting young children, it would be also important to educate these children in a thoughtful manner about their condition.

St Marcus and his ilk are confusing morality with relevance. If the HIV disease has nowhere near the prevalence in the US as in africa (which it doesn't), then why go to the trouble of creating the character? There is no sense of urgency in this country, and there will always be plenty of opportunities down the road to educate children.


DAve

	18-07-2002 05:48									#95
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No one here (I think) is saying the US Seasme Street should impose an HIV positive character, it's just that some of us wouldn't have a major problem to the point of stopping our kids from watching it if it occured.

My beef is with the Republicans once again overstepping their bounds in the personal liberty department. If parents don't want their kids to watch it, they simply don't let them watch it, via the V-chip in all modern TVs or by supervising them like they're supposed to.

	18-07-2002 05:50									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: For some reason people love going on and on about their morals and their opinion of it, and nobody is addressing the issue of the State overstepping its bounds and imposing its morals on others.

Um... Asher... this might be something new for you... but EVERY law is imposing morality on others. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Law is morality enshrined.

	18-07-2002 05:52									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

From the article:

quote: A day after show executives announced they would develop the as-yet-unnamed character for audiences in AIDS-ravaged South Africa, five members of the House committee on energy and commerce said the Muppet would be unwelcome on American TV.

So can someone PLEASE tell me why this discussion is about Africa again?

	18-07-2002 05:55									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Um... Asher... this might be something new for you... but EVERY law is imposing morality on others. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Law is morality enshrined.

I'm talking about the ones that overstep the boundaries, like banning childrens shows from having HIV characters...

That should be up to the television producers and the people vote if they want it or not by watching the show or not watching it.

If there's one thing I can't stand it's the deep-south Republicans and their GoodChristian facade trying to "help everyone" by guiding their morals in issues like this.

	18-07-2002 05:57									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui From the article: quote: A day after show executives announced they would develop the as-yet-unnamed character for audiences in AIDS-ravaged South Africa, five members of the House committee on energy and commerce said the Muppet would be unwelcome on American TV. So can someone PLEASE tell me why this discussion is about Africa again?

1) The stuff about Africa is about Africa, since that's the only place they actually plan to air the program.
2) The stuff about America is about the government dictating what they can show in Seasme Street, in a ridiculous situation such as this.
3) For some reason you and Jon love to harp about your personal opinions on if they should be on American TV, when that's neither of the real issues at hand.

	18-07-2002 05:57									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: So can someone PLEASE tell me why this discussion is about Africa again?

Because that's where the show is being televised?

	18-07-2002 06:01									#101
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: My beef is with the Republicans once again overstepping their bounds in the personal liberty department. If parents don't want their kids to watch it, they simply don't let them watch

But if that were the case, and parents were told to not "let them watch", then the show, and everything good it offers, becomes undermined. Parents also have the choice of boycotting PBS, boycotting PBS corporate sponsors, etc- things that go beyond the scope of just not watching when an issue of HIV is brought to the forefront without thorough consideration of the subject matter and its relevance upon the lives of children.

Dave

	18-07-2002 06:01									#102
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Maybe they could have a warning before broadcasting the show, perhaps, "This broadcast may contain references to HIV". That way people like Jon could switch off, and let their kids watch something else.

	18-07-2002 06:04									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Rush Limbaugh, for example...

	18-07-2002 06:10									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Jeez, I wonder if you people are really this dumb!

The 5 Congressmen raised the issue IF the character was to be aired in the UNITED STATES.

This has nothing to do with Africa at all. They can have a porno star on the show if they freaking want!

	18-07-2002 06:13									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Asher 1) The stuff about Africa is about Africa, since that's the only place they actually plan to air the program. 2) The stuff about America is about the government dictating what they can show in Seasme Street, in a ridiculous situation such as this. 3) For some reason you and Jon love to harp about your personal opinions on if they should be on American TV, when that's neither of the real issues at hand.

When this story first broke a couple of weeks ago, people were talking about putting the HIV+ character on the American version of SS. The Republicans are reacting to that. As lawmakers, they have every right to try and dictate what is shown on publicly funded television (PBS).

I have to agree with Jon, 2-4 years old is way too young to teach American kids about HIV/AIDS. The situation in Africa is different in that a high percentage of HIV+ people are kids. Most HIV+ people in the U.S. are not children, so the need to discuss it at such a young age is not present.

	18-07-2002 06:24									#106
	Support Apolyton

I saw the Tweenies explaining how a bloody checkout (much like the one I worked on for 10 months) was operated. not many of the kids the show is aimed at are going to be operating checkouts (maybe in a dozen years), but just because it's not an issue doesn't mean it should never be featured. Unless it's going to havea truly negative impact, what's the problem?

	18-07-2002 06:26									#107
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Ohhh great. Again, this wouldnt be such a problem if TV didnt teaching morals, wtf, leave that to the damn parents. And people wonder why economic pirates are stealing Billions of dollars from there workers, 5 yr old Kids are being molested and killed on a daily basis, hell even the Church has totally lost any moral highground, religous fanatics are killing thousands.

There are no morals left. NONE.

The whole thing is ****in ridiculous. People with HIV should be treated like normal human beings. With RESPECT. Sadly, such things are lacking today. I fear for the future, where most people walk around and dont give a **** about anything except themselves, there power, and money. I think were almost there.


This is not a problem confined to our borders. It seems to exclusive be a western problem.

So what the **** are the republicans *****ing at? Let the damn show go on in africa. Let it go on everywhere. I dont give a flying bobcat ass. Since apparently, parents/school dont teach there kids about this stuff.

	18-07-2002 06:30									#108
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Unless it's going to havea truly negative impact, what's the problem?

The issue is that the impact would be more negative than positive here. 3 year olds don't need to worry about issues like AIDS/HIV. They can't possibly understand it, so what's the point? The point in South Africa is that a sizable percentage of their classmates will have the disease, so they are forced to deal with the issue. In America, I cannot possibly see any benefit to teaching kids about it.

	18-07-2002 06:34									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

At least at that age, anyway. Almost all parents have no objection to teaching AIDs to teens in sex ed because thats where its important.

	18-07-2002 06:38									#110
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The issue is that the impact would be more negative than positive here. 3 year olds don't need to worry about issues like Geography. They can't possibly understand it, so what's the point? The point in Europe is that a sizable percentage of their classmates will understand about the rest of the world, so they are forced to deal with the issue. In America, I cannot possibly see any benefit to teaching kids about it.

	18-07-2002 06:44									#111
	Remove this text

Mark your comparison with HIV in US v Holland is deceptive and I bet innacurate.

First of all, we have more people than holland. A whole lot more people. Second, our AIDS infections have been dropping steadily in the past 15 years and is still doing that. The've recently leveled off and are not going down, but the problem from what I saw on PBS is in the rising HIV infections in the homosexual community more recently. I dont know there seems to be some sort of myth about it being cured and alot of people arent feeling the need to use condoms. Its not hitting drug users as bad, and it continues to decline in women.

Finally, I think you are exaggerating your claims that its 10x higher.

ahh my eyes.

	18-07-2002 06:45									#112
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* The issue is that the impact would be more negative than positive here. 3 year olds don't need to worry about issues like Geography. They can't possibly understand it, so what's the point? The point in Europe is that a sizable percentage of their classmates will understand about the rest of the world, so they are forced to deal with the issue. In America, I cannot possibly see any benefit to teaching kids about it.

couldn't you come up with a more accurate analogy?

	18-07-2002 06:58									#113
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The issue is that the impact would be more negative than positive here. 3 year olds don't need to worry about issues like life. They can't possibly understand it, so what's the point? The point in Europe is that a sizable percentage of their classmates are allowed to think for themselves, so they are forced to deal with the issue. In America, I cannot possibly see any benefit to teaching kids about it.

	18-07-2002 07:23									#114
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by NY Hoya The issue is that the impact would be more negative than positive here. 3 year olds don't need to worry about issues like AIDS/HIV.

You're right, and I don't think they'd have to.

I somehow doubt they'd go into detail about sex, T-cell counts, needles, etc.

Basically what it looks like it'll come down to is "Muppet is sick, but he's still our friend, let's give Muppet a hug and sing a song about the Number Six and play hide-and-go-seek with Muppet! yay!!!"

	18-07-2002 08:05									#115
	Why Again? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Maybe I'm wrong but I didn't realize we had problems with children being ostrasized for having HIV at a young age. I didn't know American elementary schools had kids who openly had HIV and had the other kids making fun of them or avoiding them and basically making them depressed. You know why I don't know about it, probably because we don't have a huge problem with HIV in elementary school aged children or HIV elementary age students being known about and being ostrasized and outcast. So the whole it's just going to make them feel good point is moot.

I agree it's not hurting anything to teach kids to be nice to open to people with HIV, and teach them that touching them or whatever isn't going to get them infected and die it's creating a big hooplah in congress and on the american agenda that doesn't need to be there.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

	18-07-2002 08:09									#116
	Support Apolyton

No one is saying to introduce it in the States, for **** sake.

I'm saying if they did introduce it, the government still has no right to jump in and pass laws saying they can't.

Can't you guys separate your own personal opinions and your own personal morals from seeing that the government forbidding all of that is bullshit?

Next thing you know the Government will be banning violence of any kind on TV (the reports tell us they cause violence!), they'll be banning sex of any kind (encourages sex!), and no one can even say "heck" because we know what it's implying (damn heathens!).

Whether or not a children's show has an HIV character is up to the makers of the television show, not Big Brother.

Whether or not you agree with it is kinda moot. You don't have to watch it, you're supposed to be supervising your kids at that age so they wouldn't watch it unless you let them.

So you're right, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Tell the southern republicans to go away and stop crying. Or at least teach their feeble minds how to use the television remote so THEY don't have to watch it.

	18-07-2002 08:22									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Gotta love our conservatives.

	18-07-2002 08:22									#118
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I don't think the government should be getting all up in televisions business. However this television is owned and payed for by the government. So if it was introduced into the united states and a majority of congress or whoever voted to not have the HIV+ character I'd have no real problem with it other than they should be spending their time debating more important things.

The government, the US, pays for sesame street. I don't agree with an HIV character, I don't agree with the government wasting time legislating on. However if they feel the need that they have to being they have moral objections and since they pay for well so be it.

	18-07-2002 08:24									#119
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Then Seasme Street would simply switch networks, wouldn't it?

It's not like it's a no-name show...
I'm sure NBC/CBS/ABC would love it.

	18-07-2002 08:28									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Then let them, and we would have nothing to argue about