18-07-2002 09:15									#121
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What if the Hiv positive muppet infects other muppets?

	18-07-2002 09:36									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse What if the Hiv positive muppet infects other muppets?

How? Sharing Popsicles?

	18-07-2002 09:40									#123
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I think Big Bird could be at risk to this Hiv positive muppet.

I'd hate to see Big Bird on AZT.

	18-07-2002 10:55									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov HIV-positive anything frightens Republicans. They probably still think you can get it from a toilet seat.

It jumped right up, and grabbed my meat!

	18-07-2002 11:06									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Are you one of those people who explains to children that when someone dies, they're actually on vacation in Australia?

Why should we horrify the little darling when the truth, though harsh is so much easier to bear?

	18-07-2002 12:23									#126
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I think this issue boils down to this. People sticking their noses into a non-issue that is really none of their business and creating a lot of heat by going off on unrelated tangents for no particularly useful reason, all the while patting themselves on the back and congratulating themselves on their moral superiority.

Those people are St. Marcus and Asher and a chorus of U.S. bashers who can't even seem to pick up on any of the salient points, and not the Senators that they don't like.

1) You are foreigners and we don't care what your opinions are regarding our political process. How often have I posted anything about Canadian or Dutch political events? Never, because I don't particularly care. You seem to be doing ok over there, and that's fine with me. I figure if you want my opinion about it you'll ask.

2) The issue on which the senators were quoted was whether this HIV positive muppet from the SA version of the show (which no one has objected to) would be included on the U.S. version of the show. Not only does the senate have a right to oversee how the U.S. spends it money, it has a duty to do so. In this case there is a clear utilitarian argument against doing so which I spell out below.

3) Using screen time addressing an issue which probably effects less than 1% of the audience is a waste of time, especially when there are at least a dozen other issues of more import to that audience yet to be addressed.

4) Protecting your children from undue amounts of trauma is the smart and kind thing to do. In fact a very simple rule of thumb in trying to decide how much real life trauma to expose your young children to is only expose them how much they can see for themselves. There will be plenty of time after they are drinking out of real cups and all of their baby teeth have come in for them to deal with the concept of the larger world and all of the death, disease and violence and pain it contains. Exposing children early and often to these things will only tend to create depressed and pessimistic personalities like St. Marcus and Asher respectively.

This is not to say that you should lie and make up wild stories to cover up things. If your child saw a man on fire on the street as you passed by you would definitely want to talk to them about it. However showing your 3 year old a video of someone on fire with the attitude "That's life kid. People burn." is child abuse. This is why the HIV positive muppet is ok in SA and not ok in the U.S.

5) If you disagree with a particular person or group regarding AIDs policy or whatever, then find a quote you can rip them on, start up and thread and beat them to death. There are plenty of objectionable people and opinions out there. But take enough time to find a valid case before you get into rant mode. You guys looked a good deal dumber than the people you thought you were beating up for being bigots.

	18-07-2002 17:51									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Why should we horrify the little darling when the truth, though harsh is so much easier to bear?

Because it's the truth?
Kids aren't stupid, they're ignorant. Some parents prefer to keep them ignorant as long as they can, some tell them the truth (in a nice way).

	18-07-2002 17:58									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Because it's the truth? Kids aren't stupid, they're ignorant. Some parents prefer to keep them ignorant as long as they can, some tell them the truth (in a nice way).

This was a joke juxtaposing vacationing in Australia with death btw. For a mostly serious post see my larger one above.

	18-07-2002 18:05									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Those people are St. Marcus and Asher and a chorus of U.S. bashers who can't even seem to pick up on any of the salient points, and not the Senators that they don't like. 1) You are foreigners and we don't care what your opinions are regarding our political process. How often have I posted anything about Canadian or Dutch political events? Never, because I don't particularly care. You seem to be doing ok over there, and that's fine with me. I figure if you want my opinion about it you'll ask.

I'm a dual citizen and am moving back to the US in about 3 years...

quote: 4) Protecting your children from undue amounts of trauma is the smart and kind thing to do.

Trauma? They know it's a kids show, they're not going to go into detail about it. It's going to be "blahblahblah is sick with HIV, and I can still play with him. yay!".

	18-07-2002 18:17									#130
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Whats next? Big bird handing out rubbers?

Too young of a target audience. Kids that age won't be able to even comprehend what HIV positive is.

	18-07-2002 18:28									#131
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quote: A whole lot more people. Second, our AIDS infections have been dropping steadily in the past 15 years and is still doing that.

Its actually plateaued in the past few years at around 40000 new cases per year here in the US.

People still don't think "it can happen to them".

	18-07-2002 18:32									#132
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quote: Originally posted by drake Whats next? Big bird handing out rubbers?

I just hope he uses one

	18-07-2002 19:56									#133
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asher, get your political parties straight.

republicans are pretty much the same, be they from the north or the south.

democrats are different: ndems are more liberal, while sdems are almost republican in their morality and conservative streaks.

	18-07-2002 20:22									#134
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Too many people here using the same old slippery slope arguments, and imposing morals, held by a minority, on a the majority. No point in arguing with you guys. It's sad though, that you think the State should decide on matters like this and not the parents.

I just have one comment:

quote: Mark your comparison with HIV in US v Holland is deceptive and I bet innacurate.

No, and no.

quote: First of all, we have more people than holland. A whole lot more people.

It's in %. Doesn't matter if you have more people or not.

quote: Finally, I think you are exaggerating your claims that its 10x higher.

Well, I don't have specific infection rates here, but I do have the prevalence rates. True, not ten times higher (when comparing the US and Holland), but still:

HIV/AIDS is 2 times more common in the USA than in Italy.
HIV/AIDS is 3 times more common in the USA than in Holland.
HIV/AIDS is 3 times more common in the USA than in Greece.
HIV/AIDS is 6 times more common in the USA than in Germany.
HIV/AIDS is 6 times more common in the USA than in Britain.
HIV/AIDS is 8 times more common in the USA than in Sweden.
HIV/AIDS is 8 times more common in the USA than in Israel.
HIV/AIDS is 10 times more common in the USA than in New Zealand.
HIV/AIDS is 12 times more common in the USA than in Finland.
HIV/AIDS is 12 times more common in the USA than in Norway.

	18-07-2002 20:35									#135
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Sm, is it your full time job to find topics on which you can rub the US's nose in the dirt, or is it just a hobby? Its a pretty unhealthy obsession you have

	18-07-2002 21:22									#136
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But it's the only thing I got!

:sobbing:

	18-07-2002 21:41									#137
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Ah, I never realised that teaching kids that people sometimes have awful diseases, yet they're still the same person and should be treated the same was such a negative thing. I can just see it now... "Mommy mommy, the puppet has HIV and the others are acting like we should be nice to it! But it's different and I wanna make fun of it!! Wah! Wah!"

	19-07-2002 01:57									#138
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LOL @ Gibsie! Well said mate!

	19-07-2002 03:11									#139
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So what does Tinky Winky, ALF, Kermit the Frog, and others have to say on this??

	19-07-2002 03:16									#140
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Of course they're pissed. The Republicans want to ban one of their co-workers from appearing on the show because she has HIV. That's discrimination!

	19-07-2002 04:15									#141
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So what does Tinky Winky, ALF, Kermit the Frog, and others have to say on this??

It just so happens that Kermit was a special guest on Hannity&Colmes last week. He basically said he supported the idea, and that the muppet in question wasn't coming to America. After that, Sean Hannity went into his usual conservative rant about teaching young kids about anal and oral sex. You should've seen the expression on Kermit's face after he said that! He sort of had this cringing in terror expression on his face. It was great.

	19-07-2002 06:21									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus It's sad though, that you think the State should decide on matters like this and not the parents.

PBS is government funded in the US. If a PBS show had aired in South Africa in 1985 with racist/pro aparthied overtones, wouldn't it have been ok for a U.S. congressman to say that such a version of that show would not be welcome in the U.S.?

This would not be an issue if SS were not a government funded program in the U.S.

	19-07-2002 06:29									#143
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Gibsie, I don't think you understand the other point of view. Republicans are not saying that we should not be "nice" to HIV infected mothers, they are saying that the subject matter is wholly inappropriate for kids. Perhaps this is just a US thing.

I also have a real problem with making HIV seem harmless.

	19-07-2002 06:36									#144
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If they are going to have a Hiv positive muppet they should also change the set to include a Turkish bath house and a gymnasium.

	19-07-2002 07:55									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm a dual citizen and am moving back to the US in about 3 years...

I semi-apologize then. I was actually not particularly serious about this point, but it seemed to make as much sense as the knee-jerk anti-american trolls.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Trauma? They know it's a kids show, they're not going to go into detail about it. It's going to be "blahblahblah is sick with HIV, and I can still play with him. yay!".

If it was written so as to be under the radar (ie not likely to create questions which are best addressed when a child is older in the vast majority who don't have an HIV positive playmate) then I wouldn't object, though I wonder then whether it would have it's intended effect. I'd rather that a general treatment of serious illness be done, as it is much more universal and a lot of it would also be applicable to HIV.

	19-07-2002 07:57									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I just hope he uses one

I hope he uses two, just to be sure.

	19-07-2002 20:20									#147
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quote: This would not be an issue if SS were not a government funded program in the U.S.

Then stop the funding. The show is popular enough worldwide to do without the subsidies.

Also, does PBS own the show? As I recall, it's a Jim Henson Studio production (which by now is part of a supermajor).

	19-07-2002 20:39									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Gibsie, I don't think you understand the other point of view. Republicans are not saying that we should not be "nice" to HIV infected mothers, they are saying that the subject matter is wholly inappropriate for kids. Perhaps this is just a US thing.

I know that, but that was honestly the only negative thing I could think of towards how children would be adversely affected. Kids like teasing other kids, this would teach them not to make fun of others. How else do you feel that kids would be harmed?

Also, I've seen loads of kids' TV programs that have a background to the characters as abusive childrens' homes/ foster parents/ adoptive parents. Should this sort of harmful subject matter be removed too? I also certainly hope that no American children saw the news mid-September last year- imagine the trauma!

quote: I also have a real problem with making HIV seem harmless.

If you feel that making people who have HIV appear harmless is making HIV appear harmless, we do indeed have a real problem.

	19-07-2002 22:24									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Then stop the funding. The show is popular enough worldwide to do without the subsidies.

That's probably what would happen. SS would be booted off of PBS if people had that big of a problem with it. That's what you seem to be arguing against though.

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Also, does PBS own the show? As I recall, it's a Jim Henson Studio production (which by now is part of a supermajor).

I don't know who owns the show, but it airs on PBS, which receives government funding. The fact that the show may be privately owned is irrelevant. A show owned by the KKK wouldn't be allowed to broadcast on PBS because it would be offensive to the vast majority of people. The fact that it would be privately owned wouldn't make a difference.

	19-07-2002 22:35									#150
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Gibsie, It was my understanding that the muppet would appear "normal" except for being infected. I think the "Philidelphia" approach is better, but not something that kids should see. My concern is that kids may think that Aids is really harmless and when they grow up be less inclined to avoid risky activity.