23-07-2002 05:06									#151
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Oh what is it with the obsession with nation states? Dammit, I think the EU seems a good idea, the unity of the people of Europe would create economies of scale in many sectors which the US currently benefits from.

And besides, come the revolution, it means a larger workers state to influence the rest of the world

	23-07-2002 05:07									#152
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Without the Axis of Berlin - Paris things would have moved very very slowly, if at all...

And I think that was high time after 500 years of constant state of war and 7 billions dead.

Wait, that was in Star Trek!

	23-07-2002 05:11									#153
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PH, besides, nation states are a fairly recent fabrication.

	23-07-2002 05:13									#154
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Yep. Before that, we had mere influence spheres, with vassalizations and oppressive regime to any nationality.

Nation states are very "modern times". Heck, the whole Versailles treaty is based on the nation state idea.

	23-07-2002 05:15									#155
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Absolutely paiktis, it is amazing how people allude to their 'history' and 'culture' when it is all really a hotchpotch anyway. What is modern Britain? Invaded from everywhere, there were the original celts, the Saxons, Vikings, Normans...yet so many allude to this notion of 'nationality'. Lets face it, it is rubbish. If you've ever played civ3 you'll know you don't discover nationalism until the beginning of the industrial age

	23-07-2002 05:18									#156
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 PH, besides, nation states are a fairly recent fabrication.

Define recent.

	23-07-2002 05:20									#157
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Within the past 200 years or so...that is recent...before then kingdoms used to change with marriage and other convenient political advantages; the people never had any notion of the nation-state.

	23-07-2002 05:21									#158
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PH, so true and for every country.

Nationality is indeed rubbish but it also can become dangerous if it is "harvested" by some people for their own ends.

I mean, my own country would be people with whom I feel connected with and share similar ways of thinking.

Somehow I don't see "Greece" included necessairily anywhere in the previous sentence.

	23-07-2002 05:24									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Within the past 200 years or so...that is recent...

The nation-state is older than 200 years, PH.

	23-07-2002 05:24									#160
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Stop being such a smartarse, yankarse.

	23-07-2002 05:26									#161
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Not much older, hence the 200 years or so, implying it was an approximation. Pedant.

	23-07-2002 05:33									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Not much older, hence the 200 years or so,

I wasn't aware that the words or so were ever meant to cover such a large amount of time. Ignoramus.

	23-07-2002 06:23									#163
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Actaully, the nation-state was conceptualized by French philosophers during 18th century, and put into practical use during Napoleonic wars, when the French nation fought against foreign kingdoms. It triggered the construction of many national identities (most notably in Germany and central Europe). These national demands grew over time, with 1848 unrest, and came to an apex during WWI. Treaty of Versailles created many antion states from the ruins of Austria-Hungary, and Ottoman empire in a smaller scale.

Before this whole mess, the idea of antion never truly existed, because people didn't pledge loyalty to a nation, but to a sovereign. During 17th century European wars, cities changed hands without major civilian unrest.
You might say "look at the Dutch who became independent from Spain". True, there were some nationalistic beliefs before. But the idea that a nation (a culture group) must also be a state (an administration) is no more than 250 years old.

	23-07-2002 06:37									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor But the idea that a nation (a culture group) must also be a state (an administration) is no more than 250 years old.

354 years old to be exact. Look it up if you don't believe me.

	23-07-2002 12:11									#165
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"354 years old to be exact. Look it up if you don't believe me."

I don't believe you and I won't look it up. If anything 1648 marks the birth of the modern territorial state, but not of the nation state.

	23-07-2002 13:40									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "354 years old to be exact. Look it up if you don't believe me." I don't believe you and I won't look it up. If anything 1648 marks the birth of the modern territorial state, but not of the nation state.

In this case you have to believe DinoDoc

The building of a nation-state, "World History":
1648 AD: finds Europe at the End of the Thirty Years War and The Treaty of Westphalia.The war, which was mostly fought in Germany, resulted in the destruction of 18,000 villages, 1,500 towns and 2,000 castles. Under the terms of the treaty the religious freedom of the Protestant Northern Germany as well as Saxony and Bavaria. Both Sweden and France were granted land. The German states independence was guaranteed, thus weakening the power of the Holy Roman Empire.
The resultant shrinking of the Habsburg and Holy Roman Empire, controlled lands in Switzerland, Portugal and Northern Italy, and the Netherlands."

Almost after 400 years, we are trying to "understading" each other with the most civil way. Not a good score - if it was a case at CIV III, we would have lost already!

I have notice that many of us we have change flag icons!
Ecthelion, you achieved your aim!

	23-07-2002 13:53									#167
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And that establishes the nation state how ?

	23-07-2002 14:03									#168
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Even if it's true, it's still only 400 years, blink of an eye.

	23-07-2002 14:15									#169
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Roland, Up to 1648 the knights fought each other and with this way were protecting their properties with occupations of castles and street fightings.
Afterwards 1648 it becomes obvious that needs something "bigger" for this, because any WAR for the sovereignty of grounds was (and IS remaining) A VERY EXPENSIVE sport... Under the umbrella of a Kingdom (nation-state) henceforth, adhered all the citizens. The King and Kingdom (not knights or sovereign anymore) they were building taxes systems for ALL citizens of their area: they could find money easier in order to do their expeditions.
That's why the Treaty of Westphalia is characterized as a landmark in the European history.

	23-07-2002 14:29									#170
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"Roland, Up to 1648 the knights fought each other"

For Germany you're at least 100 years of. The last Reichsritter feud was early 16th century.

"Afterwards 1648 it becomes obvious that needs something "bigger" for this"

Germany desintegrated into 300 sovereign entities.

"Under the umbrella of a Kingdom (nation-state)"

Kingdom does not equal nation state. The "german" kingdom can't even be qualified as a state. The Kingdom of Naples wasn't based on a nation. Etc etc etc.

"The King and Kingdom (not knights or sovereign anymore)"

"Knights" have only been "sovereign" in very few cases. The decline of the feudal system and the rise of the territorial state began in the 11th century with great advances in 13th century (I suggest studying the administrative structure of the French royal domaine at the time instead of quoting from some history book for children).

The nation state was based on the territorial state but those are two separate developments.

	23-07-2002 14:56									#171
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I'd love to fly the EU flag, but im from Norway! Sadly, my ****ing countrymen don't like the EU. They think the other europeans will eat all our fish and drink all our oil if we join them... Perhaps they're right, but who cares???

Hey! How about flying both your national and the EU flag! Is that possible???

	23-07-2002 15:08									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Richard I I'd love to fly the EU flag, but im from Norway! Sadly, my ****ing countrymen don't like the EU. They think the other europeans will eat all our fish and drink all our oil if we join them... Perhaps they're right, but who cares???

Thats the right spirit!

quote: Hey! How about flying both your national and the EU flag! Is that possible???

Well, if you already use your nation´s flag as avatar, you can add the EU flag via the new flag feature...

	23-07-2002 15:09									#173
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Oh wait, you need a certain number of posts to have a custom avatar IIRC...sorry

	23-07-2002 15:15									#174
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Isn't it possible to fix it??? Apolyton! You've got work to do!!!

	23-07-2002 15:46									#175
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I started a monster.

That's good.

	23-07-2002 15:56									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Harmonisation of economies and political policies leads to more stable and efficient environments.

8/10 for effort, 1/10 for content.

If the policies harmonized upon are lousy, they most certainly won't lead to more stable - or efficient - environments. Quite the contrary.

quote: e.g Members of the euro zone have removed exchange rate variation and thus risk from European trading -

I think you'd do well not to assume your conclusion follows from your assertion.

quote: they are more stable. More transparent pricing helps companies to find their goods at the best prices - i.e they are more efficient.

Unless, of course, the entire single-currency win by increased pricing transparency is lost by transnational EU-level regulations that increase the cost of production in all the union.

I'm afraid I don't really by this as "tangible benefits of Europe". Not that I don't belive that such benefits are possible, but I have yet to see them being realized. The very tangible costs of Europe, however, are all too real, here and now.

	23-07-2002 17:15									#177
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quote: If the policies harmonized upon are lousy, they most certainly won't lead to more stable - or efficient - environments. Quite the contrary.

So ditch Europe because we might harmonise to the wrong level.

That is only likely if people don't get involved and just ***** about it. If you give proactive support rather than remain a naysayer you will get the type of European Union that you want/feel more comfortable with.

If you don't help design it, don't complain if it comes out differently to how you wanted it.

	23-07-2002 17:19									#178
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EU

	23-07-2002 17:19									#179
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quote: I think you'd do well not to assume your conclusion follows from your assertion.

If you don't have foreign exchange transactions you can not have foreign exchange losses and thus foreign exchange risk is removed.

I think the conclusion definitely follows from the assertion. How can it not?

	23-07-2002 17:50									#180
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maybe they don't do it that way in Sweden