20-07-2002 02:47									#61
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Because I was making the point that just because peoples speak a different language it doesn't mean that they can't further political and economic union.

It won't happen. The EU will just remain a organization and will probably disingrate like Mercosur.

	20-07-2002 18:26									#62
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Mercosur is run by spics, that's a bad example.

Look, the US of North A were founded by Brit descendants. If anglosaxons can found an entity like that, Ger... continental Europeans sure can do the same

	20-07-2002 18:27									#63
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our civil war was the 30 years war.

	20-07-2002 18:34									#64
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quote: The EU is a bad idea. The Germans had a good thing going - what with the Wall, Bundesbank and Kohl - and now they just can't wait to give up their identity to become minions of a socialist aggregate. It's amazing what historical gulit can accomplish. The EU needs to be dismantled, quickly. You want a union? Apply for membership in the US, then

Quick question : Do you live in the Åland, moomin?

quote: our civil war was the 30 years war

Bull****. That was the GERMAN civil war.

	20-07-2002 18:35									#65
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Europe's weak attempt to unite and become somewhat comparable to the US. Good luck

	20-07-2002 18:48									#66
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I trolled Tumosomething

	20-07-2002 18:55									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu What is your problem with EU, moom? Looking from Scandinavian perspective, EU's positively capitalistic. Why, just look at the opposition. In Finland, that consists of good old Soviet bootlicker and toadeye Paavo Väyrynen, upset about his party's diminished ability to conduct agricultural policy by taxing the city and dumping the money in one giant hole in the ground, and yakking ex(?)-communist Esko Seppänen, seeing the evil NATOgoblin behind every corner, ready to set it's neo-liberal claws on what should have been the Western part of Karelo-Finnish SSR.

In Sweden, the EU opposition is mostly the usual suspects as well - the commies and the neo-nazi.

Still, while it's true that the Union represents somewhat of an improvement from a strictly Scandinavian point of view it does not outweight the Union is a huge step in the socialist direction for Europe as a whole. There is no accountability on the European level, the agricultural policies suck beyond belief - and won't be reformed any time soon despite all the hot air - the European appointment policies are a nationalistic disgrace (witness the amusing bickering over the next Eurobank head), the Union has displayed it has no respect whatsoever for election results going against the Social Democrat agenda (witness the horrifying litte freakshow they staged over the Austrian elections). And so on, ad infinitum.

In short, the EU, as implemented, combines French effeciency with Soviet respect for democracy and Scandinavian-style economic policies. I support the single market, but that's about it.

A European Union could be a good idea. This particular one isn't. We need to nip it in the bud, lest it devour us all.

	20-07-2002 18:59									#68
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quote: Originally posted by frostycreep Im not a fan of europe, and i hope england doesnt join the euro. I cant see europe ever becoming some superstate, too many differant opinions on stuff.

Now that's funny coming from an Englishman! I think Ireland and Scotland surely disagree with the english on a lot of matters but it's one UNIFIED country, right?

Anyway I think that the different point of views is our strenght.

I go for the Union.

	20-07-2002 19:00									#69
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Do you live in the Åland, moomin?

	20-07-2002 19:04									#70
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moomin: "...and all that under German rule" was missing.

	20-07-2002 19:21									#71
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer Now that's funny coming from an Englishman! I think Ireland and Scotland surely disagree with the english on a lot of matters but it's one UNIFIED country, right?

Ireland? You mean Ireland where they use Euros?

	20-07-2002 19:40									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Mercosur is run by spics, that's a bad example.

And the EU is any different?

I think it is a perfect example and fits perfectly. Mercosur is breaking apart because of trade problems between the well-off Chile and the worse off Brazil and Argentina. Same thing will happen in the EU.... little disputes will cause the "so called union" to fall apart. Ten years I give it.

quote: Look, the US of North A were founded by Brit descendants. If anglosaxons can found an entity like that, Ger... continental Europeans sure can do the same

Watch it pal. The Spanish and Italians are a lot more conservative than a country like Germany.

	20-07-2002 19:51									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Do you live in the Åland, moomin?

No need to shout, Tuomerehu.

	20-07-2002 19:53									#74
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quote: No need to shout, Tuomerehu. I'm a Åland national, yes.

Sorry, got annoyed when didn't got answer.

	20-07-2002 19:57									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion moomin: "...and all that under German rule" was missing.

"... and all that paid by Germans", perhaps. Your elected representatives have failed miserably to exert an political influence matching your economic commitment to the EU.

	20-07-2002 20:01									#76
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quote: Still, while it's true that the Union represents somewhat of an improvement from a strictly Scandinavian point of view it does not outweight the Union is a huge step in the socialist direction for Europe as a whole. There is no accountability on the European level, the agricultural policies suck beyond belief - and won't be reformed any time soon despite all the hot air - the European appointment policies are a nationalistic disgrace (witness the amusing bickering over the next Eurobank head), the Union has displayed it has no respect whatsoever for election results going against the Social Democrat agenda (witness the horrifying litte freakshow they staged over the Austrian elections). And so on, ad infinitum. In short, the EU, as implemented, combines French effeciency with Soviet respect for democracy and Scandinavian-style economic policies. I support the single market, but that's about it. A European Union could be a good idea. This particular one isn't. We need to nip it in the bud, lest it devour us all.

While much of what you say is true, I'm still optimistic enough to think it could be reformed, especially considering that majority of EU-opponents would rather withdraw from EU wholesale, single market and all that.

	20-07-2002 20:13									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu While much of what you say is true, I'm still optimistic enough to think it could be reformed, especially considering that majority of EU-opponents would rather withdraw from EU wholesale, single market and all that.

I was with you on this up till somwhere around two years ago. But I rather gave up on the Union. I see no indications of moving in the right direction and a lot of steps in what I believe is the wrong one. And the current round of enlagement will certainly not make reform easier.

Perhaps Finnish and Swedish anti-EU campaigners differ, because while commies and nazi scream to high heaven about the evils of the Union, I have yet to see anybody who wants to withdraw from EFTA. Do the Finnish EU opponents want to sever those ties as well? Given that you've already committed yourselves to the €, that would be... interesting.

	20-07-2002 20:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII Ireland? You mean Ireland where they use Euros?

Nope.

	20-07-2002 20:25									#79
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quote: Perhaps Finnish and Swedish anti-EU campaigners differ, because while commies and nazi scream to high heaven about the evils of the Union, I have yet to see anybody who wants to withdraw from EFTA. Do the Finnish EU opponents want to sever those ties as well? Given that you've already committed yourselves to the €, that would be... interesting.

EFTA? Does EFTA still exist? Wasn't that the free trade area between Scandinavian countries and Britain and few others, which gradually became less and less important as EC and later EU gained force? Or do you mean ETA?

I actually don't know how commies and populists feel about ETA. There don't seem to be that many forces left that want complete withdrawal, as all the parties that mean anything agree that EU should at least exist and Finland be a member.

	20-07-2002 20:25									#80
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So you mean Northern Ireland. Please be a little more specific, because Ireland (Eire, Republic of Ireland, Southern Ireland, etc.) is not part of the UK.

	20-07-2002 20:56									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu EFTA?

ETA, of course. Call it a brain-o.

quote: all the parties that mean anything agree that EU should at least exist and Finland be a member.

There's another significant difference. While only commies and various neo- and semi-nazi groups propose outright withdrawal (along with the greens, interestingly enough) over here, every major party except moderaterna and folkpartiet harbour substantial anti-EU sentiments. The Social Democrats are divided somewhere around the 50/50 line, and most other parties actually have anti-EU majorities.

But I would also have to say that Finland's case for the EU is more clear-cut that Sweden's, given various circumstances.

	20-07-2002 22:24									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber You guys need to step it up because you aren't near as entertaining as the Canadians are when they fight. Where are Patikis and Provost when a guy wants to be entertained?

Happy to be of service...

	20-07-2002 23:19									#83
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII So you mean Northern Ireland. Please be a little more specific, because Ireland (Eire, Republic of Ireland, Southern Ireland, etc.) is not part of the UK.

Sorry, you are right. Of course I know that the Rep. of Ireland is not part of the UK. I work for a company that has its headquarters in Dublin, I should know!

	21-07-2002 15:55									#84
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Don't be such a wannabe, Frog.

	21-07-2002 16:19									#85
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Personally, I'm proud to be Swedish. Because, despite having a currency worth bugger all, a welfare crisis and a budgetdeficit the size of Göran Persson, we know. We know that we are the best, whatever happens.

Sure, we don't brag about it. "Oh, yes, those other people think they have it pretty sweet. Just wait 'til they realize we've always been better than them" we think to ourselves and chuckle.

	21-07-2002 16:24									#86
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What happened to your currency? It used to be 4 k = 1 DM.

	21-07-2002 16:41									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion What happened to your currency? It used to be 4 k = 1 DM.

What happened? Dunno, I'm just a complaining teenager. What's the DM at now? 6 SEK? The bottomline is, the only countries we Swedes can visit without losing a fortune on exchanging money, are Turkey and Romania.

Also, we are bloody jealous of Norway. But don't say that to them.

	21-07-2002 17:14									#88
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That is my main reason for not wanting to join the Euro: the sense of superiority we gain from the pound.

	21-07-2002 19:08									#89
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper ETA, of course. Call it a brain-o.

I am center-right wing and Spanish... but I will tell you how I feel about them... I think they should all be executed.

Anyways back to the topic...

	21-07-2002 22:24									#90
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quote: There is no accountability on the European level, the agricultural policies suck beyond belief

I completely agree.

IIRC, EU farmers get something close to 30% of their income from subsidies.