20-07-2002 22:35									#61
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII No it isn't, Apple have just gone back to the version numbering standard: 0.1 (features), .0.1 (bug-fix), 1.0 (architecture). They screwed that up from OS 7, and now they've gone back. I don't think the upgrade is worth $129, but you calling it the equivalent of Service Pack doesn't help your argument, because it isn't.

How isn't it?
Bugfixes, purported speed increases, some new small features -- sounds like WinXP SP1 to me!

quote: Yeah, sure. That's what all the people who've never used a Mac for media work say.

What a typical argument.

I've used a Mac for Photoshop. Other than being slower on the Mac there's not much difference.

	20-07-2002 23:27									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How isn't it? Bugfixes, purported speed increases, some new small features -- sounds like WinXP SP1 to me!

Because the features aren't small new features, they are new features. iChat, Sherlock, Quicktime, Rendevous, the new Quartz rendering...Microsoft waits to make a whole new OS for that sort of thing.

quote: I've used a Mac for Photoshop. Other than being slower on the Mac there's not much difference.

Oh, sorry, I didn't realised you had put that level of research in .

	20-07-2002 23:50									#63
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII Because the features aren't small new features, they are new features. iChat, Sherlock, Quicktime, Rendevous, the new Quartz rendering...Microsoft waits to make a whole new OS for that sort of thing.

Not really.
iChat = MSN Messenger/MS Chat(?)
Sherlock is comparable to, what, IE I guess? Since Apple doesn't make their own, and IE *IS* the search engine for Windows..
Quicktime == WMP (WMP9 is about to come out for Win98/2000/XP)
Rendevous == MSN
Quartz rendering == Speed improvement in SP1

quote: Oh, sorry, I didn't realised you had put that level of research in .

All I know is that the "Macs are best for artists" crap hasn't been true for years, mainly because there's nothing they can do that the PC can't. The reason why the Mac marketshare is still high in that field is because that's what they're used to.

	21-07-2002 06:44									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Not really. iChat = MSN Messenger/MS Chat(?) Sherlock is comparable to, what, IE I guess? Since Apple doesn't make their own, and IE *IS* the search engine for Windows.. Quicktime == WMP (WMP9 is about to come out for Win98/2000/XP) Rendevous == MSN Quartz rendering == Speed improvement in SP1

This is nuts. You are saying that because it is already in Windows that it is not a new feature in Mac OS X. That is plain stupid. That is ignorant. Just because MS has built a monopoly OS that is illegal does not mean that adding it to OS X is not a new feature. Your arguments are stupid and wrong.


And for your information, speeds and numbers do not always tell the full story. For years, AMD has been behind Intel on numbers and the actual tests show AMD ahead in many cases to the Intel model. So numbers are not concrete. Especially when you are talking about a system that is built for Mac OS X which is not as bloated as Windows. So actually do some research!

	21-07-2002 06:46									#65
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quote: Originally posted by tniem This is nuts. You are saying that because it is already in Windows that it is not a new feature in Mac OS X. That is plain stupid. That is ignorant. Just because MS has built a monopoly OS that is illegal does not mean that adding it to OS X is not a new feature. Your arguments are stupid and wrong.

That is not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying MS adds and updates those in service packs, Apple adds and updates those as $130 "upgrades".

quote: And for your information, speeds and numbers do not always tell the full story. For years, AMD has been behind Intel on numbers and the actual tests show AMD ahead in many cases to the Intel model. So numbers are not concrete. Especially when you are talking about a system that is built for Mac OS X which is not as bloated as Windows. So actually do some research!

AMD was ahead for a while, because Intel was transitioning to a new core.

AMD is nowhere near being the fastest anymore: http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/02...engl_benchmarks

	21-07-2002 09:08									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Asher My argument with UR is that the PC users have much more control, in the bounds of STILL BEING EASY TO USE.

Okay, how easy it is to completely remove IE? I don't mean just hiding it. I mean out, gone, stop taking up disk space. What about netmeeting?

Last time when Lincoln asked how can one switch from MSN search to something else under IE in XP Home, again it turned out it can't be done without hacking the registry.

Even getting rid of the play-skool look isn't exactly easy.

	21-07-2002 09:14									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Okay, how easy it is to completely remove IE? I don't mean just hiding it. I mean out, gone, stop taking up disk space. What about netmeeting?

You REALLY need the extra 20MB of diskspace that badly?

You can't remove IE because it's used in many programs as an HTML rendering engine. It's part of the Win32 APIs -- you simply don't remove it. You can remove all traces of it by going to Add/Remove Programs. Of course it's still there, but it needs to be because of how it was designed. Don't even try to play that "but I REALLY need the 20MB of diskspace argument".

As for netmeeting, can't you just delete it? It's not a critical component. I have no idea if I even have it installed anymore, I just deleted the shortcut and it's been as good as gone for me. And isn't Netmeeting like a whole 4MB?

You're finding incredibly inane and stupid situations which don't actually have any relevance in the real world. Sure, Linux geeks love to complain about how you can't really ditch IE, just remove all references to it, but you have to wonder just how lame they are if they can't get over it...

Next thing you know they'll be *****ing that they can't delete kernel32.dll.

quote: Last time when Lincoln asked how can one switch from MSN search to something else under IE in XP Home, again it turned out it can't be done without hacking the registry. Even getting rid of the play-skool look isn't exactly easy.

Lincoln wasn't using XP. It's extremely easy in XP to switch it around with a point & click interface.

We're comparing OS X to XP to Linux, not OS 9 to Win98.

	21-07-2002 15:51									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Not really. iChat = MSN Messenger/MS Chat(?) Sherlock is comparable to, what, IE I guess? Since Apple doesn't make their own, and IE *IS* the search engine for Windows.. Quicktime == WMP (WMP9 is about to come out for Win98/2000/XP) Rendevous == MSN Quartz rendering == Speed improvement in SP1

Look, just read about them first, it saves everybody time.

iChat is like a MSN Messenger client, yes. So what? Apple aren't trying to build a massive online network, so it's not comparable to Microsoft putting MSN Messenger into the OS.

Sherlock is not at all comparable to IE. It's a complete search tool that does work (most of the time). I use Google for searching, but it can't do what Sherlock can. IIRC Sherlock also provides a nice front-end to grep, which should be worth some kind of award on its own.

QuickTime ~ WMP, yes. Even down to the fact that they're both painful to use.

Rendevous is like MSN? Did you just make that up out of thin air? It's nothing like MSN.

Quartz Extreme uses a GPU to draw the screen. Again, not comparable.

quote: Even getting rid of the play-skool look isn't exactly easy.

You mean selecting the 'Window Classic' theme and 'adjust for best performance' is difficult ?

	21-07-2002 22:38									#69
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII Look, just read about them first, it saves everybody time. iChat is like a MSN Messenger client, yes. So what? Apple aren't trying to build a massive online network, so it's not comparable to Microsoft putting MSN Messenger into the OS.

MSN 5.0 is coming out in the SP. For free. IT's very comparable.

quote: Sherlock is not at all comparable to IE. It's a complete search tool that does work (most of the time). I use Google for searching, but it can't do what Sherlock can. IIRC Sherlock also provides a nice front-end to grep, which should be worth some kind of award on its own.

I know they aren't directly comparable. Mainly because MS doesn't NEED to update its Search engine. But they will update something bigger, and more complex -- IE. Which is free with the SP.

quote: Rendevous is like MSN? Did you just make that up out of thin air? It's nothing like MSN.

Ah, Rendevous is just like MS' "Freestyle" being implemented in SP1...for free.
I was thinking it was like MSN Communities.

quote: Quartz Extreme uses a GPU to draw the screen. Again, not comparable.

But Windows XP already does use the GPU to draw the screen. That isn't a very good example.

	21-07-2002 23:09									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Asher MSN 5.0 is coming out in the SP. For free. IT's very comparable.

No it isn't--Microsoft wants everyone to use their network, so they bundle it. Apple are allowing you to connect to someone else's network.

quote: I know they aren't directly comparable. Mainly because MS doesn't NEED to update its Search engine. But they will update something bigger, and more complex -- IE. Which is free with the SP.

Doesn't need to update it? Why not? I can't do a regular expression search in Windows XP, and that would certainly be very useful. I can't load up a tool included with the OS that lets me find cinema times, or use the yellow pages.

quote: Ah, Rendevous is just like MS' "Freestyle" being implemented in SP1...for free. I was thinking it was like MSN Communities.

No it isn't. Freestyle is for use with Freestlye PCs. Care to make another wild stab in the dark about Rendezvous?

quote: But Windows XP already does use the GPU to draw the screen. That isn't a very good example.

Did Windows 2000?

	21-07-2002 23:15									#71
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII No it isn't--Microsoft wants everyone to use their network, so they bundle it. Apple are allowing you to connect to someone else's network.

So you're basing relevancy on the motives behind the product, rather than what it does?

quote: Doesn't need to update it? Why not? I can't do a regular expression search in Windows XP, and that would certainly be very useful. I can't load up a tool included with the OS that lets me find cinema times, or use the yellow pages.

That's what IE is for.
That's why I was comparing them.

quote: No it isn't. Freestyle is for use with Freestlye PCs. Care to make another wild stab in the dark about Rendezvous?

SP1 adds the capability, John.
http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/xpsp1.asp

quote: Did Windows 2000?

I have no idea. It was marketed for Windows XP when Nvidia released its Detonator XP drivers, it could also be present in Windows 2000, but since it wasn't aimed at consumers it was never marketed.

I can see where you're going, though. But Windows 2000 -> XP is a far bigger jump than Apple's "update". 2000/XP are even aimed at different markets for the most part.

MS is adding stuff like DirectX9 into the SP as well.

Apple's update is ridiculously overpriced and doesn't offer much, if anything, that MS wouldn't include in a service pack, particularly this soon after its release.

	21-07-2002 23:20									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So you're basing relevancy on the motives behind the product, rather than what it does?

Microsoft had a reason for giving it away for free.

quote: That's what IE is for. That's why I was comparing them.

No, IE is for rendering HTML, CSS, etc. That would be like me saying that with MS Paint, it is possible to do detailed photo editing. It is, but it's not what it's designed for and it's not as easy as a dedicated tool, like Sherlock.

quote: SP1 adds the capability, John. http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/xpsp1.asp

From that same site: 'So the Freestyle software won't be available for free. You can only get it as part of a Freestyle PC.'

quote: I can see where you're going, though. But Windows 2000 -> XP is a far bigger jump than Apple's "update". 2000/XP are even aimed at different markets for the most part.

You don't have to buy the upgrade.

	21-07-2002 23:24									#73
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The PC is totally superior.

It's cheaper, more powerful, has a better primary OS, has more software, etc.

	21-07-2002 23:24									#74
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII No, IE is for rendering HTML, CSS, etc. That would be like me saying that with MS Paint, it is possible to do detailed photo editing. It is, but it's not what it's designed for and it's not as easy as a dedicated tool, like Sherlock.

Just how do you think Sherlock works? 1.0 and 2.0 parsed HTML, 3.0 parses XML...it's a glorified fixed-function web browser, John.

quote: From that same site: 'So the Freestyle software won't be available for free. You can only get it as part of a Freestyle PC.'

I was thinking of Mira, which lets you use tablet PCs, among other things. Rumor has it Mira-enabled PCs will be able to talk to Xboxes on the same network and even stream music/video to the Xbox.

Here's a preview of SP1, with screenshots: http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews...sp1_preview.asp

quote: You don't have to buy the upgrade.

You don't have to buy a Mac.

	21-07-2002 23:30									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Just how do you think Sherlock works? 1.0 and 2.0 parsed HTML, 3.0 parses XML...it's a glorified fixed-function web browser, John.

If 'parsing XML' to you means 'glorified web browser' then you need to wonder exactly how glorified Xerces is.

quote: I was thinking of Mira, which lets you use tablet PCs, among other things. Rumor has it Mira-enabled PCs will be able to talk to Xboxes on the same network and even stream music/video to the Xbox.

You said Freestyle, but were thinking of Mira? Yeah, right.

quote: Here's a preview of SP1, with screenshots: http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews...sp1_preview.asp

You do know this was the reference I was using for SP1, right ?

quote: You don't have to buy a Mac.

Er, yes, exactly.

	21-07-2002 23:34									#76
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quote: Originally posted by JohnIII You said Freestyle, but were thinking of Mira? Yeah, right.

Yep, I was thinking Mira was the multimedia PC and Freestyle was the "connect and communicate with all the devices in your home" thing (name makes more sense due to "Free").

$129 for that update is amazing, though. It costs less to update from Win98 to Windows XP...

	22-07-2002 00:28									#77
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Cloud, don't waste money on a Mac if you're not a multimedia pro who has to work in that area. Stick with the PC.

	22-07-2002 01:22									#79
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Oh bollocks, Penny Arcade don't like Apple's marketing. Apple don't stand a chance!

	22-07-2002 07:46									#80
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Just for the record folks, I rarely play games on my computer; if I do play games, it's usually at a friends house on a console. But I do like to surf the Internet and listen to music. I would also like to be able to watch DVD movies, burn CD's, and burn DVD's. I would like something that has plenty of firewire and usb ports. And yes, I do work with graphics occasionally. I would like to have something that's portable, but it doesn't have to be "ultra-portable" (I don't plan on using my computer in the car, on a plane, a boat, a train, or whatever. I just want to be able to take it with me wherever I go and plug it into an outlet when I want to use it).

Despite the high price (I'm willing to shell out some extra bucks anyway, even on a PC), the new iMacs seem to fit my demands.

	22-07-2002 07:48									#81
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I voted mac, Cloud9 strikes me as the kind of person that they are made for.

	22-07-2002 07:51									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I voted mac, Cloud9 strikes me as the kind of person that they are made for.

	22-07-2002 08:06									#83
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i dunno - ive got a PC, cause ive always wanted compatibility with PC's at work.

OTOH - i have a sign on my PC that my daughter made "Stupid Computer" While sometimes the problem has been hardware, more often its the operating system - I use Windows 98, which is a big improvement over win 95, but still can be very difficult. If Mac ease of use is as good as ive heard, Mac could be really the better choice. Yeah i suppose a "power" user could get windows to everything you wanted - im not that advanced (though more so than lots of my friends), i dont want to become an operating system expert to do the things i want to do.

LOTM

	22-07-2002 08:15									#84
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What good is a mac when you can't do anything with it?

I have family living in Quebec (they just live there... they don't have anything to do with Quebec, asher) who have been using Macs for a very long time. I think they have a G3 now or something like that. Nothing great. Serves them okay and does its job. But IT CERTAINLY IS NOT FOR ANYBODY WHO DOES ANYTHING MORE THAN THE DEAD AVERAGE, not adequate for gamers, application people, or anything else more than typing, making cheesy graphics and internet surfing (even that has its limitations.

I gotta agree with Asher on the whole with this (what the?) and say the Mac does its limited purpose fine but don't expect it to do anything more than that. And furthermore the graphics thing about macs is way overrated.

(If you see grammar mistakes in that, excuse me it is late here)

Mark, Win98 was a disaster for me. I upgraded to Win2k PRO, and only have a few problems with some old programs not running but it is very stable.

	22-07-2002 08:16									#85
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Cloud, it seems that you have already decided to buy a mac and are just trying to get confirmation from those of us on these boards. In that case, do what you wanted before. I wish I could do the same (I am not a big MS fan) but I do game some and a Mac would hold me back. Besides I won't be in the market for a new computer for at least a year or two.

	22-07-2002 08:41									#86
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quote: Originally posted by tniem Cloud, it seems that you have already decided to buy a mac and are just trying to get confirmation from those of us on these boards.

Well, I haven't exactly decided. But I am seriously looking at two brand names: Apple and Gateway.

	22-07-2002 08:45									#88
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this is a reply to use this smilie because I have never done so before

Jon Miller

	22-07-2002 08:46									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Well, I haven't exactly decided. But I am seriously looking at two brand names: Apple and Gateway.

Seriously, take a look at Alienware if you want a brand.

Avoid Gateway.

Enough said!

	22-07-2002 08:47									#90
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Order a Voodoo computer and when you call, call tomorrow morning.

Then I can help you out.