27-07-2002 20:11									#151
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

My Civ II MGE was received today
I now have a manual (my Classic came in jewel case only) and have been reading it. I am curious as to something. From my understanding, the following all bring about greater trade profits:
1. Trade with another civ, rather than within your own
2. The distance travelled for the trade to occur (especially when on different continents)
3. The larger the recipient city the greater the profit

If those conditions are correct, is there a way of calculating a general profit margin based upon said conditions?

Will I always receive more profit for a commodity that is demanded, even if the demanding city is size 3 and a nearby city that does not demand the commodity is a size 12?
I assume that as a general rule you trade where a commodity is demanded, but I wonder if it is beneficial to trade with a larger city (that doesn't demand the commodity) if it is substantially greater in size than the target city.

	27-07-2002 22:03									#152
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by El Civ My Civ II MGE was received today I now have a manual (my Classic came in jewel case only) and have been reading it. I am curious as to something. From my understanding, the following all bring about greater trade profits: 1. Trade with another civ, rather than within your own 2. The distance travelled for the trade to occur (especially when on different continents) 3. The larger the recipient city the greater the profit

Yes to all, except for #3, it isn't city size, it's trade arrows for both cities. Also, direct road and rail connection is a factor, along with the commodity demanded. Oil and Uranium, for example, pay off better than Hides, all other factors being equal.

quote: If those conditions are correct, is there a way of calculating a general profit margin based upon said conditions?

Yes and no... many people have proposed formulae for trade bonus and ongoing trade, but I don't think there is 100% agreement on accuracy.

quote: Will I always receive more profit for a commodity that is demanded, even if the demanding city is size 3 and a nearby city that does not demand the commodity is a size 12? I assume that as a general rule you trade where a commodity is demanded, but I wonder if it is beneficial to trade with a larger city (that doesn't demand the commodity) if it is substantially greater in size than the target city.

I'm not sure ... but I'm sure someone else here knows Almost certainly it's better to trade a non demanded commodity with a large foreign city then to send the same commodity to a tiny city of your own. I'm not sure where to draw the line here, though.


edit: Try the GL for formulae. Having Superhighways and Airports in one or both cities will also mean more bonus, and more ongoing trade, IIRC.

	28-07-2002 00:13									#153
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by El Civ I am not depressed Monk. I am a bit frustrated with myself for being below the curve here but am trying to learn quickly so I can keep up. Lord knows I'll need it when the game reaches the modern era I wanted to play succession games so I could learn more about this game. Of course, that creates the obvious problem of me delaying the progress of the game as I learn what I am doing.

This is my virgin voyage as well; but I've grandstanded many. One thing that is cool about this format is that as each player takes the helm, it's a whole new world for him. A special situation problem to solve. He has to figure out what's going on with every city, unit, and strategy; design a plan; and carry it out. In a fundamental way it doesn't matter what anyone before has done. What he sees is all there is...a problem looking for a solution. So if the player before, or earlier, left a bit on the table--so to speak--it just makes a more interesting problem...and it will still be great fun. Okay??

Looking at your log and save, most of your "problems" came from faulty assumptions based on imperfect knowledge of the game's rules...martial law, demanding tribute while in Republic, for instance...and that is easily fixed. Just test your unstated assumptions and ask questions if you are unsure. I always make mistakes--probably everyone does--and I try to remember and learn. One thing I am sure of, a person only truely learns by doing. So, we're learning; we make mistakes; there's no crying in baseball.

You had very big challenges during your turn. I think you did pretty well with the Egyptian Incursion Incident. Defending an out-on-a-limb-with-ass-hanging-out city right beside an enemy civ is never easy. That probably will not be our last chapter in the "Incident", I think. And as has been stated, Barbs happen...especially as our underlying strategy-to trade defense for science and WOW's-makes our weakly defended cities vulnerable. This kind of "stuff" happens no matter who the player is.

There was, I think, an on going discussion here while you were playing that might have informed some of your decisions. Or it might have just confused things. I kept an eye/ear open here, while I was playing, in case a useful suggestion was offered.

Please do not take offense at the tendency of the Monk to make sermon in public.

	28-07-2002 01:02									#154
	Economics 102: Time Value of Money Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

@ El Civ

Your three points refer to the immediate bonus. There is also the ongoing arrows from the trade route. The value of the arrows received is not very different, no matter where it is delivered; but the timing is very significant. Delivery to our Fat City on our roads is relatively instant. Over time the compounding effect of even one extra arrow per turn is huge. Plus, having a trade route is good for happiness. Plus, you don't have the frustration of waiting 35 turns for the camel to get there only to have it sneak attacked, or worse, have the demand list change the turn before delivery. If you can get it to a boat and deliver it quickly, the calculus would probably change; but, overland, I lean toward birthing them and getting them to our slaughter house quickly...especially at this stage of the game. Hope that helps......

	28-07-2002 01:12									#155
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by El Civ I wanted to play succession games so I could learn more about this game. Of course, that creates the obvious problem of me delaying the progress of the game as I learn what I am doing.

Delay? What delay?

So long as you play in a reasonable time, that's far more important than how you play your turns, IMO.

In terms of progress - that's the idea - one person's progress (to a particular wonder, or to conquest, or to AC) may be ignored or undone by the next player who may have an entirely different goal. None of these games are going to set records... that's not the point.

To paraphrase SG[1]'s sig... the best part of the succession game is to be shocked/surprised/intrigued at what the last player has done.

STYOM

(stuck at work again )

	28-07-2002 01:30									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

@ STYOM

And I second that. Particularly well said...

	28-07-2002 12:36									#157
	Support Apolyton

What I meant by slowing progress was that a more skilled player could have accomplished more during my turns than I did, which means that our civ isn't as advanced as it could be, all things considered. I've been reading up on the ins and outs of this game and should be better prepared on my next turn. Everyone here has been more than gracious and helpful and I appreciate that. Even the critiques have been extremely polite

And so you don't think this isn't fun for me, I'm considering starting a succession game of my own later on.

	28-07-2002 15:40									#158
	Early hut tipping ? Remove this text

Some comments about a few questions that have been or should have been discussed in the past days in my opinion, before I start playing my turns.
I think I made a mistake by not tipping hut during my turns, since 1500bc. I replayed and opened the huts and then I got Trade and Literacy !!! Early hut tipping is risky, and I don’t play it normally, why on the path to monarchy or republic, but since my predecessors had started gambling, I should not have stopped half way and left us stuck in the middle.

	28-07-2002 15:46									#159
	Number of cities (hmm) Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I am convinced that the simplest winning way of a republic is with 8 cities, all well located (next to water and with specials), not with a billion. You take care of the 8 very well, build some infrastructure and with heavy trading and We Love the President’s day, you easily get a power house to steamroll everybody once you get howitzer or lot’s of money. Unless you want to reach the stars.
I’ve won many times with that method. It is easier, at least for me to micromanage with 8 cities than with many mores. More city, more power as DaveV says and it is true enough, but 8 is enough and the time not spent on building many more settlers and fighting more unhappiness allows an harmonious and efficient grow of the 8 cities. What’s more there is quite some corruption in republic, so building cities far from the capital is much less useful.

	28-07-2002 15:50									#160
	Trading (yes) Increase the size of your Attachments

Obviously it’s the key for winning in republic. I think we should always strive to trade with foreign powers (double bonus), especially if they have a representative gvt. Most or all of you know it’s better to trade with 1 or 2 foreign cities only, as the other civ also benefits from the trade routes (but not the bonus). Another big advantage is that a city only has 3 trade routes and apparently it only remembers the 3 best and frees a commoditiy when a road is stopped. Town A1 send 3 caravans to Town B and proposes only food now, then Town A2 sends 3 caravans also to town B with healthier routes, Town A1 gets back it’s commodities, and so on. I should post this discussion in the strategy forum, but this way you can get an infinite trade supply, providing 1 of the 3 trade routes of 1 of the cities is a food one. (It was discovered by Xin Yu).

	28-07-2002 15:53									#161
	Being too clever for one own’s health (damn) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

A danger of micromanaging and using too much of the game tricks is that it can fall back on you. Someone gifted techs to the indians to speed up research a little bit. In my opinion it is very unwise because with trading we’ll get techs (almost) as fast as we want. Why help the others ? It’s only good, I think, for OCC and its very particular strategies.
Another clever trick that I am about to fall into is the None Units factory. Mouseport that has been captured by barbarians is 3 squares away from our capital Sticky Mouse, the only city we can’t afford to lose with all the wonders inside. By putting a diplo around the hills, I am waiting for barbs to come out and bribe them. They’re very cheap to buy and as they are caught at closest from their city, they’re None units, which mean they don’t cost us shields. It has been Archers barbarians who captured the city and I am guessing only archers will come out. Horsemen could mean trouble. But with Leo, we could have free riflemen defending many cities. It is so useful that I take the gamble. It might backfire very badly, although the risks of losing Sticky Mouse are low. But then, no cities might be far enough to exile me !!!
A little easy and not dangerous trick is polar cap exploring. Barbs don’t survive there, if they appear from a hut, so you can open all of them safely, getting much gold in the process. That’s why a build explorers on Not Another. But maybe it’s just a waste of shield, but I like that one ...

	29-07-2002 13:37									#162
	Re: Being too clever for one own’s health (damn) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida A little easy and not dangerous trick is polar cap exploring. Barbs don’t survive there, if they appear from a hut, so you can open all of them safely, getting much gold in the process. That’s why a build explorers on Not Another. But maybe it’s just a waste of shield, but I like that one ...

... our little Amundsen will do the Circle in search of treasury! Definitely ot a waste of shields ...


Note on Number of cities:
maybe I'm missing something, it happens often , but I don't see why we have to stop to 8 cities in Rep, when we can do the WLTPD, with a larger number... we are full of Happy Gardens, Happy Mike, and happy some other thing...
I agree, it more "micromanaging-time" consuming... but it's worth!

	29-07-2002 13:52									#163
	Got spare money?

However, Julius - unless you intend to embark upon a massive policy of city dismemberment - we have somewhat more than eight cities ...

How's the game going?

SG[1]

	29-07-2002 14:58									#164
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Julius
Be happy!
I agree with you on most points .
1) Tipping huts = no matter. This is a succession game. If you refrain from tipping for some good reason, someone else will probably destroy your plan by tipping like Mad Max...
2) 8 cities = very performing under Rep, oh yes! but we are playing this game with many people who have a tendency to ICSing . Shall we disband? I won't.
3) Trade = oh yes!
3-1: Choice of the foreign city as trading partner = preferably very big, very far, other continent and nice ship chain between you and the city.
3-2: Internal trade routes = not to be forgotten, because they are quicker and more secure, and gain value as time goes (especially since you try to achieve swifter growth than the AI).
4) None units = fun, cheap and useful.

	29-07-2002 21:35									#165
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1120ad. A few gentle remarks about litte subtilities that I pretend to understand. We rushbuild a few caravans, as we have some money to spend, we should get back more from our investement very soon. STWA production is still in its very early stage in one city, so it is stopped. The SGs well explained it’s better to build caravans, and I am not convinced by the usefulness of this wonder in this game anyway. Trireme are “sentried” near their port. As they might cause unhappiness (if they’re the not the 1st unit out of their home city) they’re either better inside or carrying caravans to other continents. A diplo must be defending Sticky Mouse, he is rushbuild. Otherwise the empire is in a very fine health,.
1140 ad. Barbarian horsemen kill fortified pikemen in Erehwon. Heroic defense of a warrior to save the city. But as I don’t see many use for cities on this “big lost island”, I decide to let it become a huge None Units factory. As we must stay in republic, none units could be quite a factor. Besides, I like to see those red points on the map ! And it could be a great vacation area for “unsatisfactory” rulers with all the red horsemen that shall soon be patrolling there. Archers captured for 61 gold near Sticky Mouse.
1160 ad. We discover chemistry. Welcoming Arms founded to improve the factory capacity of the “Red Continent”.
1180 ad. Babylonian Wall founded.
1200 ad. Welcoming Arms captured by Barbarians.
1220 ad. We expel a Babylonian Diplomat, dangerously close to China Ferry. And we kill Egyptian Crusaders near EoE (Eye on Egypt that is).
1240 ad. We discover Invention.
1260 ad. We build Isaac Newton (maybe I should have used caravan of commodities to hasten all that because I notice now that the wonder city hasn’t an university yet !).
1280 ad. We lose EoE to the Egyptians, they take navigation. I am afraid we will have to decide soon if we want Magellan or Leo. I vote for Leo. University rushbuild in Sticky Mouse.
1300 ad. None horsemen bribed for 41.
1320 ad. We discover Magnetism.
1360 ad. We build Leonard’s Workshop. Red Haven founded on a 3 specials spot. This city should incite barbs to come our way.
1380 ad. We discover Gunpowder. Red Whale founded.
1400 ad. 3 caravans in Dehli for more than 400 gold. A good moment to retire as I eat the very 1st fruit of my oceanic trading company.

	29-07-2002 21:37									#166
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sorry for losing Eye on Egypt, but it wasn’t that well situated anyway. My turns were quite average, but heavy trading is starting and we build Leo and Isaac. I misaculated and Magellan is not for next turn (7 and not 8 caravans around). The Sticky Mouse caravans should be sent overseas with top priority. I wonder if my “red” plan will work. Yet another city might be founded in the north of the red continent. Then we need a few diplos (or well situated cities) to forever excite the barbs. As Mouseport has only given one archer in 14 turns, maybe we should take back this city. Some rushbuilding might be made as we have some cash again. Here is the saved game from a Julius that was not a conqueror.

Attachment: consul1400ad.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	29-07-2002 22:02									#167
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: STWA production is still in its very early stage in one city, so it is stopped. The SGs well explained it’s better to build caravans, and I am not convinced by the usefulness of this wonder in this game anyway.

Julius, for the record I began that wonder because it came along with Newton's and I felt that if my successor wished it to be ours he could send a fleet of caravans to make it so. I have often times had two cities build wonders in my games, one being the primary science city and the other one of my next most productive ones. However, I have not worked my way up to deity level yet (still playing on king) so I'm not arguing here, only explaining.

quote: Trireme are “sentried” near their port. As they might cause unhappiness (if they’re the not the 1st unit out of their home city) they’re either better inside or carrying caravans to other continents. A diplo must be defending Sticky Mouse, he is rushbuild.

Another of my traits. I sleep triremes outside of a city so I don't forget them. Especially as the the number of cities grows, I tend to forget where my boats are unless I can see them (I'm a forgetful person). I was not aware that unhappiness could result from that so thanks for the tip. I panicked over the loss of Mousegate and rushed a crusader to the fore. Had I attacked the city would have disappeared (size 1), and so it's a good thing my turn ended when it did. It was probably beneficial to have him near the capital anyway, for protection, but my head was elsewhere when I built him. Good move on getting a dip to the capital.

	29-07-2002 22:10									#168
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

La Fayette - the game is yours ...

SG[1]

	29-07-2002 22:13									#169
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Julius - I see you were serious about reducing the number of cities - for my threeha'p'orth I simply cannot understand how it can ever be worth sacrificing a Settler so that you can get cheap (useless) non units - but we all have our favoured methods...

SG[1]

	30-07-2002 00:54									#170
	Increase Your PM Length

Julius--

My understanding may be lacking. I would appreciate an expansion of your reasoning that led to building cities for the "Red Civ". I can understand one Barb Farm; but a Barb Continent?? Settlers represent a serious capital investment for our shield poor Republic; and even these far away dirt-hole cities contribute arrows/beakers to the total. Is there a real advantage to sacrificing them for the sake of "red points on the map"?? (I don't mean this as sarcasm; I really don't understand.)

I also would love to hear more on the theory behind letting Mouseport stay Red. Especially since 'MP' is on a road three clicks from our Cap. Isn't it just as likely that, instead of getting a NON unit, we could lose a camel, or have a worked tile pillaged, or that the Barb archer would die attacking Sticky Mouse?? It seems to me that the opportunity cost of one NON unit was fourteen turns of lost arrows if it was ours again. I just don't understand the risk-reward with this one. Perhaps there is something I'm missing and I would love to learn a new strategy... Thanks...Monk out.

	30-07-2002 03:51									#171
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I also would love to hear more on the theory behind letting Mouseport stay Red. Especially since 'MP' is on a road three clicks from our Cap. Isn't it just as likely that, instead of getting a NON unit, we could lose a camel, or have a worked tile pillaged, or that the Barb archer would die attacking Sticky Mouse?? It seems to me that the opportunity cost of one NON unit was fourteen turns of lost arrows if it was ours again. I just don't understand the risk-reward with this one. Perhaps there is something I'm missing and I would love to learn a new strategy... Thanks...Monk out.

Monk you echo my thoughts on this one

We all have our own playing styles but I don't understand the logic of allowing a barb farm on the doorstep of a thriving capital.

I founded Mouseport as a feeder city for the capital. My reasoning for this was:

1) Before railroad we can always rush a caravan/unit into the capital in one turn.

2) If our capital has a repeating supply commodity for trade I want to build a caravan here every turn. It is useful having a suburb where you can build a low value unit like a horseman to run into Sticky Mouse to disband so creating some shields in an empty box. This also holds good for building city improvements.

3) Although Mouseport looks a dirt hole...in time it will grow and because of its proximity to the capital corruption will be low. Give it three trade routes with the capital and the right road/railroad connections the trade routes should be in double figures when the city reaches size 12.

But as I say we all have our preferred playing styles


-------------------

SG(2)

	30-07-2002 04:52									#172
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Monk you echo my thoughts on this one But as I say we all have our preferred playing styles ------------------- SG(2)

That's the crux of the matter... if you guys had raced to Invention and built Leos after getting Republic (like I always do), none of this would have happened

Of course, if we head to Invention, perhaps we miss something else... so to my comments perhaps.

Definitely I will be retaking some of those cities when my turns come up... although an out of the way city for cheap barb units is

	30-07-2002 05:19									#173
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Definitely I will be retaking some of those cities when my turns come up... although an out of the way city for cheap barb units is

I agree...a city; but I wish to understand why we have created cities for the Barbs to take (and I say we--it is our game).

	30-07-2002 06:20									#174
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Don't worry!
I took back MP ( and bribed a lot of None units from the other barb factories).
But it's late. I give the details tomorrow morning

(La Fayette, REALLY ready to go to bed)

	30-07-2002 14:05									#175
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The newly appointed consul looks at Mouse Port and laughs. Then he sends a mighty crusader to the city and gives it back OUR flag. But he also sends 2 diplomats from Sticky Mouse to the southern island where the barb factories are.
The consul asks the scientists. They tell him 'yes, Steam is to be discovered very soon'.
The consul takes a deep breath and decides not to build ironclads. All witnesses can see the tears in his eyes, but he stands up and tells them: 'honourable members of the Senate, instead of waging war against the evil Egyptians who are so faraway from us, we shall try to increase our tech lead, which means growing Sticky Mouse to size 20+ and trading like hell'.

1420: Dye to Bangalore = 216g.
Steam Engine discovered, Explosives researched
1440: Coal to IdesofMarch = 62g; Silk to Bombay = 456g ; Salt to Bombay = 122g
1460: Explosives discovered, Railroad researched (yes, I know, no good for HG, but RR is the key to modern times, so ... sooner or later; probably a bit soon this time)
MAGELLAN completed in StickyMouse. We can now build a nice shipchain with 4 galions between our coast, east of SM, and Bombay (Republic, size 8)
1480: Silver to StickyM = 164g
1500: Dye to StickyM = 25g
1510: Silk to Bombay = 122g
Copper to CPalace = 29g
1520: RR cancels HG; Metallurgy researched.
Caravans to Bombay: Cloth = 72g; Gems = 72g; Dye = 82g; Beads = 95g; Gold = 136g.
Wool to SM = 36g.
Our dip bribes 2 barb legions in a row, compelled to kill 2 more barb legions + leader stacked. In the meantime, the other dips stationed on the southern island go on buying the production of the barb 'Kombinat', about 1 horseman = 41g every other turn on the average.
1540: Metallurgy discovered; Industrialisation researched.
1550: Caravans to Bombay: Wool = 160g; Dye = 87g; Dye = 71g; Coal = 82g.
StickyMouse is now size 20+, and our rate of research is now close to 1 tech/2 turns (combining shipchain to Bombay and growing StickyMouse).
The consul decides to retire and dream about the beauty of the ironclads he has not built.

Attachment: st_a1550.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	30-07-2002 14:15									#176
	Got spare money?

It is so sad - thinking about those virtual 'clads

Well played LF

SG[1]

	30-07-2002 18:10									#177
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

El Civ, as I said, the empire was in prime shape when I was chosen by the senate to lead the nation.
Bloody Monk, you're right about Mouseport. It was better to recapture it at once. The Gits have given some good arguments, too. But I wanted those none archers. Too bad I didn't get many of them. But there was no barbarian danger, I was controlling the situation well
Everybody, yes I know, my "red plan" was weird. But I thought it was funny to try to build this giant unit factory, kind of like giving birth to a new nation. Of course that some resource could have been used with more efficiency, but it was fun and I enjoyed it. And oh yes, we're well ahead of everybody else

	30-07-2002 20:20									#178
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm too lazy to go and see who's next (probably is Mr. Niccolò... lazy boy).
Tonight I don't have time to play. Tomorrow will be better but, shuold nayone want to swap my position I won't be ranting (at least, too much!).

	30-07-2002 20:58									#179
	Aquaducts?? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Messer Niccolò I'm too lazy to go and see who's next (probably is Mr. Niccolò... lazy boy). Tonight I don't have time to play. Tomorrow will be better but, shuold nayone want to swap my position I won't be ranting (at least, too much!).

Yes, you are up, then the Monk, then STYOM.

I can play in about six hours, but would prefer some info first. The question is when or if we should build aquaducts in other cities. What are the trade-offs...not building a camel, happiness problems with growth, or bigger, more powerful core cities?? Other thoughts??

I like the trade empire we are building!!

	30-07-2002 21:14									#180
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

La Fayette Nice turns You do like Railroad early

Julius A short term at Beak Farm for leaving Mouseport RED

Current Order

SG(2) Played
SG[1] Played
El Civ Played
Julius
La Fayette

Either of the next:
Messer Niccolò or
Bloody Monk
(If you guys want to change places OK)

STYOM

------------------------------

SG(2)