23-07-2002 06:21									#1
	Why is homosexuality "wrong" Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

For serious and mature people only.....please dont let this degrade into a flamefest.

I'll preface this by saying that I am a religious heterosexual male Jew, who does not believe in homosexuality, but will not hate others because of it.

I was reading another board and saw some person(who I ironically know is from the Amercian south(bible belt)......coincodence im sure) and he said "homosexuality is wrong".

I can quote scripture as good as any bible thumping christian(proboally better actually, because I speak fluent hebrew and can translate the Torah, which I am very familiar with) and the quote for which the prohabition on homosexuality for Judaism Christianiy and Islam is the following(directly translated):

"...And man shall not lie down with man, it is abomination...."

Its in a part of the torah which lists all the inapropriate sexual relations and their punishment(homosexualities is "skema" or in english stoning).

Im not going to judge homosexuals, as I KNOW the Torah has the hand of man written in it, as well as the hand of God(no I dont believe the creation story...I believe in theistic creation) but I will of course never do it.

We are almost certain homosexuality is genetic, if homosexuality is genetic and it is something a person is through no fault or action of their own, how can someone say it is "wrong" and that homosexuals are wrong?

Secularly(non religiously) isnt "wrong" whatever harms another person, or society at large, how does this harm society?

Religiosly-how can you hate someone for how "God" made them?

Please dont let this degrade into a flame war, but if anyone here from a religious stand point thinks homosexuality is wrong, can you explain to me why it is**?





**other then saying the bible says so.....Judaism(where the law originally comes from) has a different ideology from Christainity and Islam-your supposed to question every law with an eye towards scepticism so you better understand them, please explain to me WHY it is wrong, or what the justification behind the rule is.

	23-07-2002 06:23									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: who does not believe in homosexuality

So you don't believe it exists, or you don't believe others should do it, or you don't want to do it yourself?

If it's one of the first two there's no point in me even trying to talk to you.

	23-07-2002 06:24									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It's gross.

Other than that, there is no non-religious reason.

Matter of faith for many.

Personally, so long as I'm allowed to be heterosexual I don't care what they do.

	23-07-2002 06:28									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Homosexuality is illegal in Argentina......

If you pick up the intended meaning of my posts, hatred in the United States is nothing compared to what it is like here.

I said that only several dozen times.

	23-07-2002 08:26									#5
	Support Apolyton

Yes... what exactly do you mean by, "I don't believe in homosexuality."

Everything else you say in the post seems to contradict that statement.

	23-07-2002 08:36									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

It is gross and perverted. Its pointless and backwards.

As far as Im concerned. I would try to discourage it and not encourage it.

But far be it from me to dictate my heterosexuality on others. Gotta take a "each to his own" and "Mind my own business" attitude. We also shouldnt bleedin scapegoat. If we want to live in a Democracy, we kinda have to be tolerant of them. I mean. Other than Europe and N. America. Homosexuality is pretty scorned and outlawed everywhere else. And they aint much better off for it.

So ya. Personally I dislike it. As long as they dont force these things down my throat on TV, politics, etc......(which thankfully they dont). But I could say the opposite is true with heterosexuals. we kind of force our crap on the other side. Im sure the gay dudes here dont care for the heterosexual nightly/daily 24:7 TV. (perhaps not. But they've never said anything)



""...And man shall not lie down with man, it is abomination...."

If your a christian you shouldnt worry about the old testament. Dont let the fire and brimstone talk get to you. Jesus died for murders, sinners, perverts, crooks, etc..etc...he made that clear. There was absolutely NO distinction.

	23-07-2002 08:42									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: It is gross and perverted.

Why normal sex isn't, then?

	23-07-2002 08:44									#8
	Support Apolyton

Normal sex is gross and perverted as well, it's just that people are used to it. Heterosexual sex is a part of everyone's life through the media, and even most gay men have had heterosexual sex at least once (gotta see what they're missing ).

People just aren't used to homosexual sex, so it becomes gross and perverted. Heterosexual sex is the same thing, just people tend to grow immune to that as their hormones tell them to go at it.

	23-07-2002 08:47									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

How is it pointless and backwards, fg?

	23-07-2002 08:50									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sodomy is icky.

There isn't really a religious reason.

	23-07-2002 08:52									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

So is cunnilingus and vaginal sex.

	23-07-2002 08:53									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Lorizael How is it pointless and backwards, fg?

I think he means it doesn't cause babies.

Of course, most people try to avoid babies in heterosexual situations...


Anyway, it's really no business of those not involved.

	23-07-2002 08:56									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with faded on this one. I think he means? If we all prefered the same sex as our own humanity would cease to exsist in it's present state.

	23-07-2002 09:02									#14
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by blackice I agree with faded on this one. I think he means? If we all prefered the same sex as our own humanity would cease to exsist in it's present state.

As much as you have been whining about the world, one would think that would be an outcome you would strive for.

	23-07-2002 09:04									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by blackice I agree with faded on this one. I think he means? If we all prefered the same sex as our own humanity would cease to exsist in it's present state.

But since that isn't a valid concern, it's rather pointless as an argument against homosexuality.

There isn't anything perverted about two men or women loving each other. It isn't the norm, but that doesn't make it sick, either.

Whereas homophobia, gay bashing and hate are clearly harmful to people and society, and homosexuality itself isn't, then obviously folks who yell the most about protecting society would be the most in favor of tolerance and acceptance of gays. Right? Right.

	23-07-2002 09:45									#16
	Suffering from ads?

SIGH

First off, there are homophobic Jews and Christians who hand pick parts of the Bible that speak out against homosexual behavior, and avoid other parts of their scripture that is not convenient for them to follow.


Secondly, as Boris pointed out, the social norm right now is that heterosexual sex is acceptable, but homosexual sex is not.

This does not mean that homosexual sex is not legitimate -- it's simply that society refuses to recognize its legitimacy.

	23-07-2002 09:57									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: even most gay men have had heterosexual sex at least once

Not this queen. It's so...oh gawd. The mechanics of straight sex mystify me. It's so..and then there's....and what does that do?....

As my former manager once remarked, I'm "purebred homo." 110% Grade A Certified Gay.

As for the thread topic, it's not wrong.

Well, 40 year old queens that wear tight shirts despite having let themselves go twenty years prior shopping for "that perfect conversation piece" to go in their Colonial Style Leather Dungeon is wrong on so many different levels but you can't use that to condemn all gays.

Note: Starchild is not anti-shopping, anti-tight shirts, anti-mature men (oooh, the experience they have!), anti-leather, anti-S&M, anti-interior decorating. He enjoys all of that, just seperately and not thrown together in one horrifying abomination.

Nor is Starchild anti-women or anti-hetero. He has many women, hetero, and hetero women friends. They make excellent shopping partners.

	23-07-2002 10:02									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm not a fan of men taking it in the pooper.....


Women, on the other hand...

	23-07-2002 10:06									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You don't have to enjoy homosexual sex yourself, to respect the rights of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals and recognize their legitimacy.

	23-07-2002 10:08									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Actually ice. That isnt really it. I meant backwards and pointless by totally opting out of spreading there genes. Its really not the way nature is set up.

btw dont be paranoid about the human race going anywhere. (just a guess, but it seems right) 95% of us here on earth are heterosexuals and are attracted to members of the other sex. Its doubtful there will ever be a day when homosexuality will be able to significantly effect the worlds population. Homosexuality has been around since the begining of civilization (there were probably a few Cave queens back in the day too). Its always represented a good 5-10% of the population.


As for the mechanics of str8 sex. I can say, its good. Damn good and fun. Damn fun. And until we can have a gene-selector and bio-mechanical womb. It will have to work (and even when a Bio-mechanical carrier is made, most of us will still like women)


oh ya. Wheres my pizza?

	23-07-2002 10:12									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: As much as you have been whining about the world, one would think that would be an outcome you would strive for.

Ah the labels a comments of the ignorant, in your case it may be prefered. Stupid people should not breed obviously

quote: But since that isn't a valid concern, it's rather pointless as an argument against homosexuality.

It isn't?

quote: favor of tolerance and acceptance of gays

You bet

quote: it's simply that society refuses to recognize its legitimacy.

Some of society, be clear...

	23-07-2002 12:22									#22
	Put an end to popups!

i really dont care if a guy likes guys. i just dont want to KNOW about it.

go ahead and flame me for being a homophobe.

i'm not afraid they'll come on to me, i'm not afraid they'll give me AIDS or anything like that.

I just am honestly disgusted by it. I saw two guys kissing in the halls of my highschool and my stomach turned. i swear on my life i almost puked. i dont know WHY, but it weirds me out.

i dont HATE gay people. i know of several. i talk to one on a quasi-daily basis. he knows that it weirds me out, and he doesn't go out of his way to remind me that he's gay.

yes, i know theres nothign *wrong* with being gay (wakes up the super conservatives). i've been subject to the american high school brainwashing campaigns. theres nothing wrong with it in my opinion, i just dont like to know about it.

i understand that it's your RIGHT to be gay. i understand that you may want to feel proud of it, to vocalize your opinions / feelings. I understand that this is also a fundamental right of yours. I know everything you do *should* be prefectly legal, but again, it just weirds me out to no end. I just flat out dont like it being shoved in my face.

If you're gay, you're gay. You have the same oppurtunities to gain my respect based on your character. I do not want to know about your sexual prefrence, and if you dont respect me enough to acknowledge that, to keep your "gay" out of my face, then I won't respect you.

It's that simple.

Martin Luther King still apllies here. I will judge you on the content of your character, not the orientation of your sexuality.

	23-07-2002 13:05									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If one was to examine the natural (animal) world, one would find rare cases of homosexuality.

Vesayen, in essence, homosexuality is not wrong, it's just not natural. To truly understand homosexuality we must look towards history and evolution. According to the natural order of things, a male and female are required for reproduction. Clearly, homosexuals cannot reproduce, which makes homosexuality unnatural. My reasoning may perhaps seem a bit infantile at first but take a moment to think.

Let us ask ourselves a question and try to think of answers:

1. What is natural? - Homosexuals are obviously a minority. Animals with "homosexual" habits must also be a minority. Is that which is in the minority not natural? Is homosexuality a deviation from the natural?

During the last few thousand years of human existence, homosexuality has been quite visible. Ex. Ancient Greece, today's Toronto or New York City. I assume that among the first humans, there must have been rare cases of homosexuality, although homosexuality back was most likely not as prevalent as it is today. Is homosexuality on the rise?

This is how I reason: If one is homosexual, they can do nothing about it and must be treated as any other human being. They must be allowed to engage in courtship, pursue relationships etc. Homosexuals are born homosexual, they must be treated with respect. However, as much as I think that homosexuals should be fully integrated into society and enjoy the same rights as heterosexuals I still do not think that homosexuality is natural.

Is there a flaw in my reasoning?

------------------
~Dominik - Lord of the Putumayo~

	23-07-2002 13:17									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality. I find it rather grand that a guy can find love in another guy. I happen to be hetero, but I wouldn't be sad if I was born homo.

	23-07-2002 14:13									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I know of a pair of lesbien ducks, they live at the hobby farm I dump my grass at. for 3 years now they have been unseperable and have been known to try and mate with each other . I guess if its ok for ducks to be gay then its ok for humans as well .

I'm glad I'm hetro.

	23-07-2002 14:19									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

My personal opinion that this is equivalent to smoking. Some people can't tolerate doing it and one could say that this is bad for the individual (less chance of having kids , one of the primary biological goals of any being) , but noone should hate someone that does that , or change his opinion on that person because of it.

	23-07-2002 14:43									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Dominikos 1. What is natural? - Homosexuals are obviously a minority. Animals with "homosexual" habits must also be a minority. Is that which is in the minority not natural? Is homosexuality a deviation from the natural? During the last few thousand years of human existence, homosexuality has been quite visible. Ex. Ancient Greece, today's Toronto or New York City. I assume that among the first humans, there must have been rare cases of homosexuality, although homosexuality back was most likely not as prevalent as it is today. Is homosexuality on the rise? This is how I reason: If one is homosexual, they can do nothing about it and must be treated as any other human being. They must be allowed to engage in courtship, pursue relationships etc. Homosexuals are born homosexual, they must be treated with respect. However, as much as I think that homosexuals should be fully integrated into society and enjoy the same rights as heterosexuals I still do not think that homosexuality is natural. Is there a flaw in my reasoning?

Yeah, I think your answer to "what is natural" is not logic. If you say "If one is homosexual, they can do nothing about it and must be treated as any other human being." - why can´t it be "natural" then? Only because a majority is not homosexual? How is being "natural" related to "are a minority/majority?"

	23-07-2002 14:48									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Er, smoking can harm those around the smoker as well.

	23-07-2002 15:12									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I don't believe in "right" or "wrong".
What is right here and now, may be wrong another day and/or in another place.

As it was said before, homosexuality do not hurt either of the partners, nor third parties, so I don't see it as "wrong"... but it does not mean I see it as "right" either... just "neutral".
And as a "neutral" behaviour, I think people should be free about it.

But maybe in some situation/time/place homosexuality is/was/will be "wrong", just as maybe in other time/situation/place it is/was/will be the "right" behaviour...

	23-07-2002 15:48									#30
	Support Apolyton

Homosexuality is technically wrong because it's counterproductive. However, world population doesn't have that strong a need for reproduction. But then, western societies do.

As long as it doesn't get overhand, it should be tolerated. Wait... it does!