23-07-2002 20:14									#61
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There is absolutely nothing unnatural about homosexuality, it is common place in nature and exists in many different species of animals - particularily amongst the animals considered to be the most intelligent and complex.

If the only type of sex which is deemed to be 'natural' is that which is for reproduction, then most heterosexual sex is also, by that definition, unnatural.

	23-07-2002 20:21									#62
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I have no problem w/it. Why should I? Go for it, though I don't really wanna hear the play-by-play.

I find the large percentage of people who condemn (to one degree or another) homosexuality vaguely amusing. Some aren't amusing at all - those that are particularly rabid about it. But most are just funny because of their screwy logic.

I can't decide if Luk is scary or hilarious.

-Arrian

	23-07-2002 20:25									#63
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quote: - particularily amongst the animals considered to be the most intelligent and complex.

apparently HUMANS aren't included in that list of "animals" huh?

	23-07-2002 20:26									#64
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I don't get the "It's unnatural" or "it's not what was intended" arguments.

It is clearly natural, as it has been observed in all mammalian land species. It may be rare, but just because something is rare doesn't make it unnatural. For me, I assure you it is perfectly natural. Heterosexual sex does not come to me naturally, however. I don't think you people really know what "natural" means. You're confusing natural and unnatural with common and uncommon.

As for "intended"--nature doesn't have "intent," it just is. Nature has no more intent than a tornado does.

There are plenty of theories that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon that has become a part of evolution, anyway. I read one study where it showed how in human and animal populations, times of great stress upon the population tended to be followed by periods of an upsurge in homosexuality. For example, there seemed to be an unusually large numbers of gays in Germany in the decades following WWII, particularly in the areas hardest hit during the war. It's also been noticed in animal populations when there is overpopulation that there is a rise in homosexual behavior, perhaps as a natural response to the overcrowded conditions. I suppose the thrust of the theory is that nature compensates for overpopulated conditions by triggering higher incidents of homosexuals, perhaps through the mother (i.e. being under stress during pregnancy may be part of the cause).

It's an interesting theory, at least.

Regardless, I don't think those who say "It's perveted, unnatural, makes me sick, etc....but there's nothing wrong with it, just keep it to yourself" realize how hypocritical and hurtful such a thing is. It comes across as very disingenuous.

I find akin to saying "all Black people are lazy, dirty, thieving, stupid drug users...but it's o.k. to be Black, just as long as you stay away from me."

	23-07-2002 20:27									#65
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Says the man who doesn't get any

No, actually the man who goes out of his way to avoid ever having any. It is a common jibe, that one is critical of sexual relations because one "cannot get any", but it is more a case of detesting the very thought of such activity, and not being involved as a result.
And the jibes are about as effective as being headbutted by an anorexic butterfly who is flying against the wind.

	23-07-2002 20:28									#66
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Animals can behave unnaturally as well.

	23-07-2002 20:30									#67
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Like Cardiff fans.

	23-07-2002 20:36									#68
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I'm part of the "whatever floats your boat, just don't tell me about it" group, but to be fair I'm the same way with my heterosexual friends. I don't really want to know what the skank they picked up at the bar let them do--people ought to have a bit of discretion about what is and isn't "private". If a heterosexual/homosexual friend says "I had sex last night," then fine. If they start giving anatomical details, then I cut them off, regardless of their sexual preference.

	23-07-2002 20:48									#69
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I'm just wondering what it is that makes people think homosexuals are any more likely than heterosexuals to inappropriately discuss the details of their sexual activities. I, for one, have always been the don't-kiss-and-tell type, and get squeamish whenever anyone gives details of their activities.

But I think some of the folks here are also talking about such innocuous activities as hand-holding, kissing in public, etc. Saying those aren't acceptable for gays--when they are perfectly fine for heterosexuals--is a simple double-standard and is not fair. That's saying "you shouldn't be gay in public." Well, guess what? I'm gay no matter where I am, and it's not my responsibility to alter that behavior to appease the childish squeamishness of people whom it bothers.

	23-07-2002 20:51									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I'm just wondering what it is that makes people think homosexuals are any more likely than heterosexuals to inappropriately discuss the details of their sexual activities.

Perhaps it's the in-your-face jockstap & leather parades, Boris.

	23-07-2002 20:52									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But I think some of the folks here are also talking about such innocuous activities as hand-holding, kissing in public, etc.

I do a double-take when I see PDA's from homosexuals, but that's just because I'm not really used to seeing them (while I am used to seeing PDA's from heterosexuals).

	23-07-2002 20:53									#72
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Gays, not gays, just people going on about their business

Ont hing that's rather annoying though is that sometimes everything gets turned to being about homosexuality.

This happened a lot with Mr. Fun and a bit with Boris as well.

But both have grown out of it now and that's an improvement

	23-07-2002 20:54									#73
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Perhaps it's the in-your-face jockstap & leather parades, Boris.

How about those in-your-face, breast-bearing and penis-showing heterosexuals at Mardi Gras parades?

I think it's pretty even-handed.

	23-07-2002 20:57									#74
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 This happened a lot with Mr. Fun and a bit with Boris as well.

The vast majority of my posts have always been unrelated to my sexuality. I don't think I've ever discussed the subject seriously except in the context of it being first brought up by someone else... kinda like this thread!

	23-07-2002 20:57									#75
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Yeah, there was a time when any thread that MrFun posted in would immediately turn into one about some aspect of homosexuality.

	23-07-2002 20:57									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How about those in-your-face, breast-bearing and penis-showing heterosexuals at Mardi Gras parades?

I think that's tasteless and disgusting as well.

quote: I think it's pretty even-handed.

Oh yes. In New Orleans, that is. Don't know if they do tasteless hetro parades anywhere else. Tasteless homo parades, now...

	23-07-2002 20:57									#77
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 One thing that's rather annoying though is that sometimes everything gets turned to being about homosexuality.

One-trick ponies are just annoying in general, whether the poster has an obsession with homosexuality, natural rights, atheism/christianity, american-bashing/euro-bashing, etc.

	23-07-2002 20:58									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Animals can behave unnaturally as well.

If the action of any non-human is automatically defined as natural, by your reasoning, homosexuality is quite natural, and thus, you have contradicted yourself.

And sheesh, some of you fill me with annoyance over your treatment of this issue, and even Boris's line of reasoning on this issue looks too much like apologism to me. What is the big problem? It isn't a choice, it is the way people are. And a lot of you are speaking from a position of harshly enforced social convention? I think it is high-time society had a far more open model on sexuality, not this pigeonholed system that currently exists. As Iain said in one of his former signatures, 'we are all bisexual' or should have the option/capacity to be so depending on our own desires, not following arbitrary christian ethics.

It is the affection between two people that matters, regardless of their sex(uality). It certainly beats war, murder, bigotry and hatred

	23-07-2002 21:00									#79
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"If the action of any non-human is automatically defined as natural, by your reasoning, homosexuality is quite natural, and thus, you have contradicted yourself"

An animal doing a certain thing doesn't make it natural.

	23-07-2002 21:01									#80
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Still, I think it was Rogan that said that there does need to be some debate about most people's unspoken assumption that "natural = good, right".

Unnatural behaviour is not necessarily wrong.

	23-07-2002 21:01									#81
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But it's obviously natural by definition; it is not incited or devised by mankind. Therefore it is natural.

	23-07-2002 21:03									#82
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I do a double-take when I see PDA's from homosexuals, but that's just because I'm not really used to seeing them (while I am used to seeing PDA's from heterosexuals).

So do I, actually...I'm just not used to being in a place where people can do that so freely. But it makes me feel good to see it.

quote: I think that's tasteless and disgusting as well.

Fine, but as long as you acknowledge that homosexuals are no more inclined to partake in such behavior than heterosexuals, that's the point. I'm guessing you haven't really been to a gay pride parade, though, since the vast majority of the floats and marchers are not "tasteless and disgusting." It is only a few who go to the extreme.

quote: and even Boris's line of reasoning on this issue looks too much like apologism to me.

Which line of reasoning was that, Provost?

I don't think I could ever be considered an apologist.

	23-07-2002 21:14									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Fine, but as long as you acknowledge that homosexuals are no more inclined to partake in such behavior than heterosexuals, that's the point.

Statistics sure don't support that claim, Boris.

quote: I'm guessing you haven't really been to a gay pride parade, though,

I've been to two, out of curiosity, before I decided I didn't need that sort of behaviour displayed in order to fulfill my life.

Then I once sat a hour or so idly staring out of my car window at the passing parade once. But I don't hold that against them, I hold it against the morons that allow parades and marches of any sort to disrupt urban traffic.

quote: since the vast majority of the floats and marchers are not "tasteless and disgusting." It is only a few who go to the extreme.

Newsflash: everyone get's judged by what extremes they allow to represent them. Gay parades, of course, are no exception to this rule.

	23-07-2002 21:21									#84
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Statistics sure don't support that claim, Boris.

What statistics? Where? Show them. Calling your bluff.

quote: Newsflash: everyone get's judged by what extremes they allow to represent them. Gay parades, of course, are no exception to this rule.

Newsflash: No matter how often that may happen, it will always be the fault of those who are judging based on the extremes, not those who are being unfairly judged. I don't judge groups by their extremists, or else I'd be happy to say you're just like Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell.

	23-07-2002 21:27									#85
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Boddington, I think it's fairly obvious why you're so uneasy with two men showing affection.

	23-07-2002 21:30									#86
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No, he's not one of us! We won't have him!

	23-07-2002 21:41									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What statistics? Where? Show them. Calling your bluff.

You question the fact that there are like three orders of magnitude more gay parades in the world than the mardi gras in New Orleans?

quote: Newsflash: No matter how often that may happen, it will always be the fault of those who are judging based on the extremes, not those who are being unfairly judged.

That would indeed depend on whether they are judged unfairly or not. I see no problem with judging people by whom they let represent themselves.

quote: I don't judge groups by their extremists, or else I'd be happy to say you're just like Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell.

Would you, now? What group do you imagine I belong to that could be said to be represented by those two gentlemen?

	23-07-2002 21:42									#88
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So, to play devil's advocate, you would say that all blacks are a bunch of lazy whiners who don't care about getting ahead in life because of Jesse jackson or rappers?

	23-07-2002 21:50									#89
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper You question the fact that there are like three orders of magnitude more gay parades in the world than the mardi gras in New Orleans?

More cities than New Orleans hold Mardi Gras parades, and regardless I guarantee you I can find tenfold photographic and other evidence of lewd public heterosexual behavior, whether in the context of a parade or not. But statistics are hard numbers, which you claimed to have...

quote: That would indeed depend on whether they are judged unfairly or not. I see no problem with judging people by whom they let represent themselves.

Which is why I mentioned I should have no problem judging you based on Falwell or Phelps. Or Hitler, for that matter.

quote: Would you, now? What group do you imagine I belong to that could be said to be represented by those two gentlemen?

No, I wouldn't which is my point. But the group would be, um, heterosexuals? At least, they and you all claim to be.

	23-07-2002 21:56									#90
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Oh, and as for "I see no problem with judging people by whom they let represent themselves."

Since when were gays "letting them represent themselves?" Not at all. You can't see the difference between being tolerant of people, even those who are more extreme than you are, and "letting them represent you?" They're not representing anything, they're just being given the freedom--like anyone in the parade--to express themselves as they want. The vast majority choose not to express themselves that way. Anyone who assumes it's about "representing" anything is making an erroneous assumption.