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Kropotkin
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of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:21
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Well, I think it's wrong to say that Israeli-arabs are second class citizens. There's discrimination but so it is against minorites in most countries. I've read some about that and I haven't read any reasonably objective source imho that states that they are second class citizens. Israel has some questionable immigration laws on the other hand but I guess that has it's "natural" explanation.
Last edited by Kropotkin on 28-07-2002 at 03:23
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Along came the jews, who didn't have this restriction.
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Not true. Want me to quote from the bible for you?
Jews are not allowed to loan with interest but they were driven out of all other professions other than trade, and those who couldn't be traders (didn't have the connections needed for the job or couldn't travel much) became loaners. Many were beggers too, with very little success though. They had no other choice since they really didn't have any other ways of supporting their families.
Btw, if you think Jews became rich as a result then you're wrong again. Most of the rich Jewish families started from businesses such as trading, accounting, journalism or law.
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Which is exactly what I've been saying. But it also means the jewish people have abdicated their claim to Israel for a higher standard of living.
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The standard of living is not that good in Israel today either. The rate of unemployment is very high and many people live in poverty. Still there are immigrants from European countries and N. America where the standard of living is much, much higher.
However, when you're talking about a mostly uninhabited land filled with swamps and deserts and flies that pass terminal diseases and is terrorized by bandits... well, then it's practically suicide going to a place like this. It's better to continue mentioning Jerusalem every Jewish holiday and live in Europe or N. Africa rather than migrate to Israel with a 99.9% chance of dying.
In my opinion Jews only began to migrate to Israel in large groups in the 19th century because this is when they started to get together and form groups such as Hashomer Hatsair and Bilu. Those groups were founded as a result of the Jews seeing other nations return to their homeland and remembering they have one too, and now would be the time to migrate there are the public opinion was pro-nationalism.
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
And they were offered Uganda, which they turned down. 'The jews need a nation of their own' is not sufficient reason to displace the arabs who already lived in palestine.
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If the Muslims were exiled for Mecca do you think they would settle for Uganda?
As for displacing the arabs, noone wanted to do that. As you know there were talks between Zionist leaders and ME leaders. The Zionist movement as a whole didn't strive to replace arabs with Jews, it was only some Zionist extremists who decided that Palestine cannot be split between Israel and the Palestinians.
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Somehow it seems the modren jews has gone from believing in the Torah to believing in the infallability of israeli text books.
It doesn't matter how well we prove that statements such as 'there was plenty of land available in palestine' or 'prior to 1950 there was no such thing as a palestinian' are patently false, the reply is always 'your source is biased/wrong/anti-semitic, and our textbooks are right because it says so in our textbooks'.
The paralells to say, creationists, are quite striking. Nothing we say will ever be accepted, because they know 'the truth'.
Of course, there are always dissenters. In the old days they were burned as heretics. In modern Israel they are merely shunned, branded as 'self-hating jews'.
But you can break out of it. Be critical. Don't accept statements without a proper source, barring a reductio in absurdum. And train your mind to accept the fact that when reality and preconceptions clash, reality wins every single time... |
Dear Gnu,
I completely agree with you.
This is highly distressing indeed.
We could point out that irrigation systems of the '30s are incomparable with modern techniques.
This is what I found about the availabe farming land:
"Qassam invoked the Koran against Arabs who sold land to Jews, threatening to brand them as infidels and to deny them religious burial. The loss of land, he charged, had forced peasants to live from hand to mouth. He knew whereof he spoke. According to Pamela Ann Smith's figures, "While each Jewish resident in 1935 had, on average, 28.1 dunams (7 acres) of arable land, there were only 9.4 dunams [slightly more than 2 acres] for each Arab," who had to live well below subsistence level.[20]"
(source: T.A.Idinopulos: 'Weathered by Miracles',1998)
[20] Shai Lachman, "Arab Rebellion and Terrorism in Palestine, 1929-39; The Case of Sheikh Izz al-Din Al-Qassam and His Movement," in Kedourie and Haim, Zionism and Arabism, 60.
note for Sirotnikov: 'Weathered by Miracles' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Nevertheless this knowledge is of dubious sources and factually incorrect or misleading. True specialists do not need to go to the library and search for quotes proving that this is bull; they prove their right by repeating it a zillion times.
The fact that person after person, who studied Israeli history and Israeli law for final tests in Israel does not agree with this information, proves that this information is most probably wrong.
No one should bother much for one misleaded professor of religious studies at an American university, resident scholar at the Ecumenical Institute for Advanced Theological Studies in Israel, with an alt.history book
But since Arabs are just savages they deserved to lose all land. This was effectively accomplished in 1948.
quote:
From the traditional viewpoint the jews should return to the promised land with the messiah etc. A mostly secular ideology like Zionism changed that. |
Yes indeed! For the Orthodox it was always forbidden to advance the reestablishment of a Jewish state in any possible way. Only the Messiah can end the Diaspora, which is Divine punishment for Jewish sins. The ultra-Orthodox still follow this rule. The Orthodox were always the most fierce opponents of Zionism. You should definitely visit the Neturei Karta website!
So it is a combination: loss of influence of Orthodox doctrine, combined with increasing Anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe and also the dominant position of Western civilisation. Before the nineteenth century it was impossible to conquer parts of the Ottoman empire.
It would have been logical when secular Jews would have tried to establish a state in Poland or Russia. But the Russian, German and Austrian empires were far too strong. The Arabs/Muslims were by most Europeans considered to be 'ape-men savages'!
One other remark: it is probably true that there was in the beginning no Palestinian identity. Palestinians considered themselves to be part of Syria. It was secret diplomacy between Britain and France that drew the border.
Sincere regards,
S.Kroeze
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Shiber, you've misunderstood one thing: Palestinian resistance is not originally against Israeli attacks but against Israeli occupation. Furthermore, there ARE extremists, but they exists on both sides. When you finally understand that the Israeli who shot Rabin is of the same mindset as a few of the really hardcore palestinian organizations, particularly Hamas, then you finally have a chance to understand the conflict.
In 1993, Arafats popularity was immense. He had established peace with Israel, a palestinian state seemed to be attainable. He staked his politicial future on peace with Israel leading to a palestinian state. Hamas, his political rivals, saw it differently. They wanted Israel eliminated, and the only way they could do that was to stop the peace, get Israel to continue its heavy handed occupation until eventually the rest of the muslim world rose up in arms.
Sadly, Israels failures to keep the promises in the Oslo treaty only benefited Hamas at the expense of Arafat, where it eventually got to the point where Arafat couldn't act against Hamas without losing popular support.
The only groups gaining on the current situation are the extremist groups in palestine, such as Hamas, and the extremist groups in Israel, such as Likud. |
Of course there are extremists on both sides. There were people in America who said they now want to kill every Muslim in the world, but if they are caught attacking a Muslim they are jailed. Same in Israel.
In fact not recently the Israeli police has cracked down on a gang of settlers that is responsible to the deaths of many Israeli Muslims, which they stabbed, as well as for many acts of sabotage of property owned by Muslims. Arafat, on his side, has done no such thing.
Arafat has been constantly saying in public that peace with Israel is stage one, whereas stage two is the total elimination of Israel by the terrorist network which he intended to build up in the Palestinian state.
Back then, most Israelis thought he was only saying that to please his people and the Muslim world. Sadly, Arafat's failures to keep the promises in the Oslo treaty only benefited Israeli parties such as the Likud who were against the Oslo process.
P.S. I think you're confusing the Likud with Shas and Moledet. The Likud may have harsh policies concerning Palestinians and the conflict but at least they don't make racist remarks like Shas and Moledet do.
Sometimes I'm sorry that Democracy grants parliament members a partial legal immunity so they can say whatever they want. Some remarks made by extreme right-wing parliament members really make me angry.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Shiber, I've already posted proof: the british white paper.
As I said, if you don't agree with it, you will have to post something that agrees with you. Claiming that there is lots of land today doesn't prove anything, especially since Israel prides itself of making even the desert into fertile land...
Besides, you are making the claim that there was lots of unused land in palestine. I'm saying you are wrong. That I've proved my point is secondary, even if I hadn't done so you would still be required to back up your statement. |
I can't give you any evidence of my claim other than the eye evidence that I've mentioned because honestly, I have no idea where I can get maps that show unused land. If I ever come across such a map I'd be happy to post it.
Maybe you should visit Israel one day and see for yourself. Just drive around the unresidential roads, you'll see lots of unused land.
Regarding your last statement, it was Ben-Gurion's dream to make the Negev desert into fertile land. Israel does make efforts to grow things in the desert but on a very small scale, mostly because such efforts have turned out to be very unprofitable. Most projects have actually ended up putting Negev farmers into debts.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
BTW, IIUIC, Kreuze isn't saying secular marriage is forbidden but that it is not recognized legally. Different cause, but the end result is the same.
Furthermore, don't make the mistake of equating not knowing one tidbit of information with not knowing anything. |
That's a completely different thing. I admit that secular marriage is not recognized as legal marriage in Israel (nor is it forbidden, though) but so is marrying in a reform ceremony or a civil marriage.
This is due to the fact that Israel grants its citizens with a freedom of religion, but not freedom _within_ your religion if you're Jewish. Jews may only marry in an Orthodox ceremony.
This is all a result of the fact that the Orthodox parties have a lot of political power. See, the balance between the left and the right wing in the parliament is roughly 50%-50%. The Orthodox can tip the balance even with a small number of seats in the parliament when they make deals with left or right-wing parties (the right-wing is usually more prone to accepting such deals). Basically, the Orthodox parties promise to support certain legislations made by the ruling party if that party would appoint a member of an Orthodox party as the minister of internal affairs and continue to allow the Orthodox foundations completele control over the marriage and divorce of Jews.
Sadly, this has gone on for quite some time. Today there are many parties that object the tactics employed by the Orthodox parties, both in the political left and right, and those parties get large amounts of votes as well as a lot of public support.
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
Not true. Want me to quote from the bible for you?
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I know it is biblical, where do you think christians and muslims got it from?
Any religious group can decide what tenets to uphold. Christians do eat pigs, do not force their women to live in huts during their period, but will still call on leviticus to condemn homosexuality. Why do you expect jews to be different? 
quote:
Jews are not allowed to loan with interest but they were driven out of all other professions other than trade, and those who couldn't be traders (didn't have the connections needed for the job or couldn't travel much) became loaners. Many were beggers too, with very little success though. They had no other choice since they really didn't have any other ways of supporting their families.
Btw, if you think Jews became rich as a result then you're wrong again. Most of the rich Jewish families started from businesses such as trading, accounting, journalism or law.
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I didn't say all of them were rich, I said as a group they were better off than the average european, since they took advanate of the rise of the merchant class. The vast majority of europeans stayed as peasants and for the most part not improving their situation until the industrial revolution.
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The standard of living is not that good in Israel today either. The rate of unemployment is very high and many people live in poverty. Still there are immigrants from European countries and N. America where the standard of living is much, much higher.
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Shiber, I haven't contended that the jewish people reinvented the need o return ot palestine. If fact, I have said so numerous times. Kropotkin articulated it as well.
The key issue here is that the jewish people had 1400 years in which they could have returned, but instead choose a better life, which invalidates any claim on the land.
quote:
However, when you're talking about a mostly uninhabited land filled with swamps and deserts and flies that pass terminal diseases and is terrorized by bandits... well, then it's practically suicide going to a place like this. It's better to continue mentioning Jerusalem every Jewish holiday and live in Europe or N. Africa rather than migrate to Israel with a 99.9% chance of dying. |
Except that the groups I previously mentioned actually DID make this choice because of their religious conviction.
quote:
If the Muslims were exiled for Mecca do you think they would settle for Uganda? |
In two thousand years, and if they didn't care about Mecca in the meantime? Maybe. Either way, they would have no moral or legal claim on Mecca.
quote:
As for displacing the arabs, noone wanted to do that. As you know there were talks between Zionist leaders and ME leaders. The Zionist movement as a whole didn't strive to replace arabs with Jews, it was only some Zionist extremists who decided that Palestine cannot be split between Israel and the Palestinians.
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The balfour declaration called for the creation of a jewish state. The alternatives would have been moving out or accepting a jewish overlord instead of a british. Neither alternative was particularly appealing to a people who endured incredible hardships during the firts world war just so they could achieve independence.
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
Of course there are extremists on both sides. There were people in America who said they now want to kill every Muslim in the world, but if they are caught attacking a Muslim they are jailed. Same in Israel.
In fact not recently the Israeli police has cracked down on a gang of settlers that is responsible to the deaths of many Israeli Muslims, which they stabbed, as well as for many acts of sabotage of property owned by Muslims. Arafat, on his side, has done no such thing.
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He did, actually. He arrested several hundred Hamas members. When Israel started rocketing prisons he was forced to let them out, however.
Furthermore, you are again ignoring that Israels breaking of the Oslo accords made it progrssively harder for him to take action against Hamas, until he couldn't do anything at all.
quote:
Arafat has been constantly saying in public that peace with Israel is stage one, whereas stage two is the total elimination of Israel by the terrorist network which he intended to build up in the Palestinian state.
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And he has signed in paper that he acknowledges Israels right to exist. Please stop the tired propaganda...
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
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S. Kroeze, You make it sound so simple. But it is not.
"The only solution of tile problem put forward by the Arab Higher Committee was the immediate establishment of all independent Arab Government, which would deal with the 400,000 Jews now in Palestine as it thought fit."
This is a quote from the Peel Commisssion report.
The end to the Jewish presence in Palestine was and to, some extent, is still the ultimate Arab goal. A second, Final Solution.
You suggest that we Americans could round up all illegal Mexicans and simply return them to Mexico. But, there are tens of millions of them! There may be some lunatics who could advocate this, but can you imagine the human suffering this would cause if it were actuallly attempted? The mere advocacy of such a position is astoundingly racist.
But this is exactly what you and your Arab brethern were and still are advocating. The fate of the Jews in Palestine, if you had your way, would be the same fate they suffered at the hands of the Nazi's.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
He did, actually. He arrested several hundred Hamas members.
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And then freed them. If you don't believe me you can check the records and see that many Hamas members were killed, captured or conducted a suicide bombing while they were supposed to be in a Palestinian prison according to the Palestinian records.
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
When Israel started rocketing prisons he was forced to let them out, however.
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No, he was constantly freeing Hamas members before we ever touched their prisons.
The Palestinians were able to fool the European union for many years
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Furthermore, you are again ignoring that Israels breaking of the Oslo accords made it progrssively harder for him to take action against Hamas, until he couldn't do anything at all.
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The Oslo agreement decreed that peace and normalization between Israel and the PLO should be made in stages. The first few stages required us to transfer certain lands to the PA, which we did, and the Palestinians were supposed to fight terrorism, which they didn't.
Anyway, you should ask Siro about it. He knows more about the Oslo agreement and the violations of this agreement than I do.
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
And he has signed in paper that he acknowledges Israels right to exist. Please stop the tired propaganda... |
And then, moments after, he made a press conference for arab journalists in which he clearly said that the agreement is bogus and that the PLO has not forgotten that it is obligated to destroy Israel and drive every Jew out of Palestine. You can check and you'll see it's true, every word of it. Or would you rather believe the same man who shook hands and kissed with Saddam Hussein during the gulf war when Iraq was launching missiles at Jewish population centers in Israel.
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28-07-2002 03:17
HEY!!! 
Leave my state outta this! 
) made me think it was pointless to read anything but the first post though. 
was thrashed by our beloved moderator!
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