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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
It appears that Shiber eventually ran out of stalling arguments, and has since disappeared. |
I was at the doctor! I'm undergoing a surgery this Tuesday and I had to be examined prior to the surgery. After the examination I got back home and read a good book by Terry Pratcheet (one of my favorite writers along with Asimov and Douglas Adams), walked my dog and had dinner. Then I decided to check the thread and discovered, to my surprise, that I've been declared as missing, presumed having run away from an argument.
I thought you can't declare someone missing unless he hasn't been in contact with someone during the last 24 hours..?
You were partially right though. I haven't disappeared, but I intend to leave this thread once and for all. We've been going around in circles for 12 pages now and neither of us has accepted any arguments made by the other side, which IMHO means that we might continue this thread up to page 30 without making any progress. I thereby declare that I find this thread pointless and that I intend never to enter this thread again.
Any childish posts stating that I "cowardly ran" because I "ran out of arguments" will be met with... well, rolling laughter I guess!
In the mean time, y'all can have a nice time arguing with each other and going in circles. I, on the other hand, am going to finish that book. 
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
You were partially right though. I haven't disappeared, but I intend to leave this thread once and for all. We've been going around in circles for 12 pages now and neither of us has accepted any arguments made by the other side, which IMHO means that we might continue this thread up to page 30 without making any progress. |
Doh.
Welcome to the beautiful world of ME threads.
Natan and CyberGnu talked about every point you mentioned at least 20 times in the past.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
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S. Kroeze, I have read your posts and your arguments.
On the Mexican issue, yes the sovereign has the right to control immigration and deport illegal aliens. However, even we recognize that this is only theoretical when tens of millions of illegal aliens are involved.
I read a post here by a Serbian national a short time ago that justified Milosovic's adtions in Kosovo on the grounds that all he was trying to do was to "evict" illegal aliens. This hero of yours, your shinning example of one great leader, akin to Arafat, dedicated to restoring Serbian lands to its rightful rulers, is now on trial for crimes against humanity.
You animus againt the Jewish people is what is astounding. You dissect their religion and customs to show just how "evil" they truly are - in order to what? Justify your next steps in the ME?
I quote you a section from the Peel Report that demonstrates two things. First that the Palestinians wanted self rule in 1937. This I believe is a justified demand. I suppot it.
However, the second half of the equation is where the problem lies. They not only wanted self rule, but they wanted to rule the Jews and put an end to the Jewish National Home. Given the past violence between the two groups, the British could not acceed to this demand. The likely result would not be some "benign" tolerance.
As of the legendary tolerance of the Muslims, the whole point of the Crusades was to restore the rights of Christians to visit the Holy Land which was then being denied by the "tolerant" Muslim occupiers.
More tolerance: The current intifada began when, IIRC, Sharon visited the temple mount, one of the most sacred places in Judaism. What tolerance is this?
I see Islam as being one of the most intollerant religions on this planet. They once conquered far and wide to spread their religion to the Infidel. This happen only three other times in history. Once when Cyrus tried to conquer the world to spread Zoroastrianism. A second when Chalemagne coquered the Saxons and other Germans tribes to spread Catholicism. And, finally, when the Spanish conquered in the New World in order to spread the faith. At least in the cases of Christianity and Islam, the conversion were almost 100%, leading one to believe that conversion was not optional.
My obviously hostile reacton to Islam is due to its intollerance. I see Islam as being a religion of hatred, a religion that preaches the killig of the Infidel. I understand from George Bush that Islam is a peaceful religion. But I simply don't see any examples of this in current history. What I see, instead, is Jihad.
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
S. Kroeze, I have read your posts and your arguments. |
Dear Ned,
Thanks a lot for showing your true face!
This will make further discussion probably redundant.
quote:
On the Mexican issue, yes the sovereign has the right to control immigration and deport illegal aliens. However, even we recognize that this is only theoretical when tens of millions of illegal aliens are involved.
I read a post here by a Serbian national a short time ago that justified Milosovic's adtions in Kosovo on the grounds that all he was trying to do was to "evict" illegal aliens. This hero of yours, your shinning example of one great leader, akin to Arafat, dedicated to restoring Serbian lands to its rightful rulers, is now on trial for crimes against humanity. |
I already suspected your reading skills were a bit poor.
I am sorry to see my suspicions confirmed.
Could you please point out that sentence/post where I have praised Arafat/Milosevic/both?
There is another point that escapes me: to my modest insights the Arabs have been evicted from their land, while the number of Zionist Jews in Palestine has significantly increased.
When I err on this issue, please correct me!
(I hope you know Milisevic -like most Serbs- is a Christian?)
quote:
You animus againt the Jewish people is what is astounding. |
Could you please give one -just ONE- example of any remark made by me inimical to Jews in general?
Generally I portray them as victims of Western/Christian civilisation.
For your information: not ALL Jews are/were necessarily Zionists. Zionism is of relative recent date (1896), while Judaism is very old. Unfortunately, many non-Zionists were killed during the Holocaust, while some Jews were -against their true desire- forced to migrate to Palestine.
You don't think that something should have been done to reduce the numbers of Holocaust victims?
It is a real shame you avoided answering this question:
Whose fault was it that so many settlers had migrated to Palestine in so short a period of time?
(Or do you hold the Arabs in Palestine responsible for 2,000 years of Christian anti-Semitism, the pogroms in Eastern Europe and the rise of Nazism? It wouldn't surprise me anymore...)
AND: Was Palestine a safe area for Jews YES or NO?(safer than Western Europe or the US that is)
-because when Muslims are the most bloodthirsty of men -if they are human at all- this what NOT a safe area.
quote:
You dissect their religion and customs to show just how "evil" they truly are - in order to what? |
Could you please show me one -just ONE- example of any remark I have ever made inimical to Jewish religion or Jewish customs?
quote:
Justify your next steps(?) in the ME? |
I am very sorry to disappoint you, but I have never visited the Middle East. And the chance I will visit the Middle East ever in my life is rather small -though I might one day visit Egypt or perhaps western Turkey because I am interested in Antiquity (my field of knowledge) and Byzantium.
What 'steps' did you have in mind?
Though I will probably not convince you, I am telling the truth when I say I am a rather quiet and law-abiding individual, I even pay my taxes.
Let's make it clear that it is not my fault when you have some quarrel with your girl-friend, your parents or your employer.
I hope you can solve your personal problems soon, but I hope you don't mind when I do not think it appropriate to vent your rage on a complete stranger.
I sincerely hope you will recover soon!
quote:
I quote you a section from the Peel Report that demonstrates two things. First that the Palestinians wanted self rule in 1937. This I believe is a justified demand. I suppot it.
However, the second half of the equation is where the problem lies. They not only wanted self rule, but they wanted to rule the Jews and put an end to the Jewish National Home. Given the past violence between the two groups, the British could not acceed to this demand. The likely result would not be some "benign" tolerance. |
Not giving sovereignty to immigrants is NOT identical to expelling (or killing) them.
When will the U.S. cede a third of its territory to those illegal Mexican immigrants -giving them a National Home?
Perhaps we are misunderstanding one another on this point, but I hope you have by now understood that this Peel Commisssion report preceded the 'Great Revolt'. That no democratic reform was introduced doubtless made the Arabs more violent.
I am still waiting for your proofs of those 'constant attacks' I am so eagerly expecting. I will repeat one more time my request:
Please show me evidence of those 'constant attacks' on Jews by Arabs before 1937
When you can find examples of pogroms in other Muslim countries you may list them too. Since there were so many it will be very easy to make a devastating list.
And please mention your sources!
quote:
As of the legendary tolerance of the Muslims, the whole point of the Crusades was to restore the rights of Christians to visit the Holy Land which was then being denied by the "tolerant" Muslim occupiers. |
Is that also the reason they immediately killed ALL inhabitants of Jerusalem, among whom were many Christians, after conquering the city in 1099?
When you would like to discuss the Crusades please feel free to start a new thread about it!
For the moment I will only make the remark that a state can determine which individuals enter its territory. Or do you think that a country should give ALL people -also known enemies and possible terrorists free access?
There are so many countries which require a visa.
What do you think would have happened to a Muslim visiting Christian Europe?
quote:
More tolerance: The current intifada began when, IIRC, Sharon visited the temple mount, one of the most sacred places in Judaism. What tolerance is this? |
The thought probably never occurred to you that Sharon is not really popular among Muslims?
Excuse me, this is beyond the point!
The point is of course that a non-Western people is by nature subject to Westerners. So even when they are exposed to ethnic cleansing, colonial rule, expropriation, systematic discrimination, foreign occupation, they have NEVER the right to revolt.
Instead they should rejoice because they are ruled by 'civilised' people!
quote:
I see Islam as being one of the most intolerant religions on this planet. |
Thanks a lot for finally showing your true colours!
It is most clear your knowledge of history at large -and Islam in particular- is a bit shallow and you are not truly interested (or too lazy) to enlarge your learning.
I could list ALL crimes of Christianity and Western civilisation (Holocaust, murder of the Indians, slave trade of Africans, etc.) -which will be hard to beat anyway- but you will remain convinced of the superiority of Western Christianity.
CONGRATULATIONS!
quote:
They once conquered far and wide to spread their religion to the Infidel. This happen only three other times in history. Once when Cyrus tried to conquer the world to spread Zoroastrianism. A second when Chalemagne coquered the Saxons and other Germans tribes to spread Catholicism. And, finally, when the Spanish conquered in the New World in order to spread the faith. At least in the cases of Christianity and Islam, the conversion were almost 100%, leading one to believe that conversion was not optional. |
First there is a difference between conquering a region and administrating it. Yes, the Muslims conquered a large empire; afterwards their rule proved to be quite tolerant.
(by the way, there were many LARGE empires in History, Rome, China, Alexander....)
I know I am asking to much, but could you please again give evidence of those draconian 100% Islamic conversions?
Ever heard of the Inquisition, witch-hunts, heresies?
Even today there are quite a lot of Christians living in the Middle East, even in Palestine. To my knowledge Christianity is beyond doubt the dominant religion of the Balkans -though the region was under Ottoman rule for many centuries.
How many Hindus and Buddhists still live today in India?
I can go on, but this should do.
quote:
My obviously hostile reacton to Islam is due to its intollerance. I see Islam as being a religion of hatred, a religion that preaches the killig of the Infidel. I understand from George Bush that Islam is a peaceful religion. But I simply don't see any examples of this in current history. What I see, instead, is Jihad. |
When you think the utterances of G.Bush have any scientific value you are truly lost.
Your opinion becomes perfectly clear!
Of course making any attempt to provide substantial evidence is not necessary.....
After all, the Western world has during the last two centuries never done any wrong to any Muslim; no colonisation and settlement, no hostile interference ever. Muslims (like Jews) have always been treated as equal human beings. They are never depicted in the West as savages, ape-men etc...
You should definitely read a book written by W.Ziff, The rape of Palestine; you will doubtless enjoy it because it will confirm all your prejudices!
"An extreme example of this can be found in The Rape of Palestine, a book written by William Ziff, an American representative of the Revisionist movement. Ziff described the Palestinian Arabs as a 'sickly and degenerate race'[25] that was 'low on the scale of human development'. In explaining the origins of the Palestinians, Ziff noted that 'from the steppes, mountains and deserts an agglomeration of primitive and savage man had swarmed in successive waves over Palestine and left their seed.'
Since to Ziff the Palestinians were the result of a 'churning stew of races', it should not be surprising that he believed that they had 'virtually no creative gifts'. He also charged that 'the ruling passion of an Arab is greediness of gold.' Ziff suggested that an Arab's 'love of money is such that he loses all sense of proportion whenever currency is dsicussed.' Similar remarks directed against the Jews could easily be found in any number of anti-Semitic propaganda sheets then being published in Germany.[*] Considering the inflammatory nature of the Revisionist attitude toward the Arabs, it was inevitable that Jabotinsky's followers would provoke violence in Palestine."
(source: M.Palumbo, 'The Palestinian Catastrophe',1987)
[25] William Ziff, The Rape of Palestine, p. 373.
[*] Not surprisingly Ziff's book was endorsed by many of the leading members of the 'American liberal establishment' of the 1930s. Like their equivalent in our own day, they saw no inconsistency in condemning anti-Semitism while supporting Zionist anti-Arab racism.
note for Sirotnikov: 'The Palestinian Catastrophe' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Nevertheless this knowledge is of dubious sources and factually incorrect or misleading. True specialists do not need to go to the library and search for quotes proving that this is bull; they prove their right by repeating it a zillion times.
The fact that person after person, who studied Israeli history and Israeli law for final tests in Israel does not agree with this information, proves that this information is most probably wrong.
No one should bother much for one misleaded historian with an alt.history book based on UN and Israeli records
Let's hope you enjoy your feelings of moral superiority!
When you are unwilling to answer my questions, and categorically refuse to present evidence of Muslim depravity, it is useless to continue the discussion.
Some other question you consistently decline to consider:
Do Mexican immigrants in the U.S. also oppose democracy and self-government?
How did the Zionists behave in Palestine?
Did the Arab -Muslim, Christian AND Jewish- population have any influence on Zionist immigration and acquisition of land?
IF Palestine was the most unsafe place on earth to live for a Jew, which morbid, sadistic crooks had invented the very idea to migrate to this region?
Sincerely,
S.Kroeze
Last edited by S. Kroeze on 29-07-2002 at 02:55
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:21
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S. Kroeze,
Just a few quick answers: My primary source is the US Army Area handbook on Palestine. I also read the original documents to which it makes reference.
I know very little about the internal Jewish or Muslim religious doctrines. I think they are largely irrelevant to this dicussion. I accept that each religion, as does the Cristian religion, has holy places in Palestine, aka, the Holy Land, the Promised Land or Terra Sancta.
I suspect we in the US get along well with the Mexican immigrants because they are Catholics. It might be different if they were a non Christian religion and therefor had a completely different value system, etc. But they don't, so the issue is academic.
I referenced Milosovic and Arafat because of seem alike in trying to take back the land from the illegal immigrants, something you seem to espouse for the Jews in the ME.
As for the attacks on Jews - see the Army Handbook. There were many, beginning in early April, 1920, in Jerusalem.
Back to the "tolerance" issue, you seem to evade the point by making an issue of the Crusader attrocities in the Holy Land and Sharon's unpopularity with the Palestinians.
The cause for the Crusades remains. The Muslim occuppiers cut off Christian access.
The cause for the Intifada remains: a Jewish politician visited land the Muslims held sacred, ignoring the fact that the same land is also sacred to the Jews. This kind of reaction tells the world that we cannot trust once against turning these holy sites over to the sovereignty of the Muslim,
I personally favor the original UN plan - that Jerusalem be administered by an international body.
(BTW, "next steps" is an "expression." It really means what you intend to do next.)
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Zylka
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WOW ISN'T THIS DEBATE ABSOLUTELY F*CKING INTERESTING
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:21
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Sigh, let's reply to your specious arguments, as well as your blatant attempts to bend the truth...
Most of this is, as usual, complete crap. So I'll just answer the more entertaining stuff before consigning the rest to the garbage can...
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
well if you're not going to address this seriously, I'm not going to argue with you as it is pointless.
I never know if you're coming back and you usually don't come back. This thread is an exception.
What up, lost your friends?  |
For a start, after a post or two of shooting down your outrageous claims I've made my point and move on, as I shall show now...
quote:
I admit that Sharon has responsability or liability. choose the word.
That doesn't make him a criminal. |
Well DOH! Those were war crimes, if he is responsible - then logically he is a war criminal!
Why I bother to take seriously answering you, I shall never know - your arguments are truly pathetic...
quote:
Let's take a school for example. One kid has killed another while the teacher wasn't looking. Is the teacher responsible? Sure. Is he a criminal? nope. |
Man, are you trippin' or what - I cannot believe you think you can get away feeding this BS!!!
Is it any wonder no one takes you seriously?
So, Sabra and Shatilla is a school, right? Sharon the Headmaster?
OK, This headmaster decides to invite the teachers from the neighbouring school into his school - only days after the headmaster of this other school was assassinated by some kids from the same families as those going to 'Mr' Sharon's school... Anyway, these teachers are really pissed off and they decided to bring their guns!
Now, nice 'Mr' Sharon has decided to put his teachers in a cordon around the gates of the school to prevent any kids from running truant - in fact he keeps them locked up in the school for hours as the teachers from the other school go on a murderous rampage!
Actually Siro, it is deeply insulting to compare the deaths of 2,000 murdered men, women and children to a 'kid killed while the teacher looks the other way'...
But then it is evident that you consider the lives of innocent Palestinians beneath your contempt...
quote:
As I've said - I hold him accountable for it and I think it was right that he was demoted and had 19 years of political willderness. |
Then he's guilty Q.E.D.
Yes, he was so badly punished for those murders that he was allowed to build and expand the settlements in the occupied territories etc. Then after that they promoted him to the highest office in all the land! Some punishment!
quote:
I admit that there is a slight such possibility, but only in a very extreme case.
I do not actually believe that Israel attacked the USS liberty on purpose.
Furthermore it's nice you hold me accountable as the official Israeli spokesman. If I say something it must be true then, no? |
We had you cornered like a rat, spewing contradictory babble about whether the flag was limp - or that the ship was sailing too fast... Man, you didn't know which way to turn...
This was the extreme case Siro, they knew exactly where to attack, they knew exactly what they were attacking and they attacked for SO LONG!!!
Surely if it were all a mistake you can tell me all the Israelis that were court martialled or sent into the 'wilderness' as you so euphemistically put it...
I mean, some really high ranking heads must have rolled eh Siro?
It was a blatant and deliberate attack on a USS ship!
No one but the most blinkered, head-in-the-sand, brainwashed apologist could ever hope to think otherwise...
quote:
Settlements: I admit that there are problematic issues with it, and generally there is injustice caused by them being there.
However, currently they serve a strategic goal and should stay there until a peace agreement comes. |
Understatement of the millenium!!!!! Of course they serve a strategic purpose, while they remain as the most naked provocation to Palestinians - the Israelis have the excuse to remain forcibly subjugating the Palestinians... 41% of the occupied territories are already under the direct control of the settlements as it is - it is a number that is increasing!
quote:
No, you can have me say something and attempt to twist my words like you are doing to anything you ever read about the ME. |
See above Siro, you are so BUSTED! I don't need to twist anything - all I have to do is give you enough rope...
quote:
I hold the opinion that if you quit - you know you've lost.
You seem to hold the opinion that if you ignore what I say and keep adding moronic accusations - you win. |
Yes, no matter how wrong you are - you must not quit!!! Hence, in your increasing desperation you post utter nonsense, and then I ignore it and accuse you for posting nonsense...
quote:
quote:
All it does is show that you know you cannot answer my points - even in your twisted apologist mind you know that Sharon launched an attack that murdered a large number of children at the precise time that Hamas was considering stopping it's attacks! |
do me a favour - don't be such a clear biggot. |
Tell that to the international news agencies like CNN - hey guys, Siro says you're all bigots!
quote:
When have Hamas actually said that they are considering to stop attacks? |
Ask CNN...
quote:
As for the attack - the military is responsible for preventing casualties - not sharon. Sharon says "kill that terrorist". If the military ****ed up, it's their fault. |
It was reported that Sharon gave the personal order for this attack - it is inconceivable that he did not realise the ramifications of dropping a 1000kg bomb on a heavily populated block of flats!!!
quote:
Nope.
I'm content he is dead.
I condem the way in which it was done which caused the death of innocent children. |
The tone of your initial posts were that they were acceptable losses...
quote:
quote:
Because you know that if you answer my question it's going to raise some very uncomfortable questions about how Israel has admitted to killing about as many Palestinian civilians 'accidentally' as the Palestinians have blown up in suicide attacks!!! |
Look at the difference.
Israel kills accidentally.
Palestinians kill on purpose.
Is an accident the same as first degree murder? |
Actually I suppose it's called Manslaughter... So, how many IDF personel have been convicted of these hundreds of 'accidental' deaths...
I mean what is an accident?
If for example you bomb a heavily populated apartment block with a one ton bomb - you must know you are going to kill innocent people...
Are they accidents, is that your definition of an accident - we knew we'd kill civilians, but we didn't mean to!
It's pure murder!
quote:
Therefore I still hold the opinion that Israeli attacks on terrorists are justified, and if all measures were taken, some civilian death is acceptable. |
Civilian death is never acceptable.
quote:
However, attacks targetted at civilians are never ever ever justified. |
Like a 1000kg bomb hitting an apartment block?
You claim you're on holiday, guess you'd better get your D/L Shiber to answer this...
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:21
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Explosion in Jerusalem.
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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Dear MOBIUS,
How anyone can claim Sharon is innocent is also beyond my comprehension.
"The immediate response of the Israelis, on September 15, was to occupy West Beirut, which had to be seen as the centre of terrorism in general, since Damascus, under Soviet protection, remained out of bounds. A Cabinet communiqué, on September 15, stated that Israel's entry into West Beirut was intended 'to prevent any possible incident and to secure quiet.'[102]
Within a few days, this kind of explanation was to make it impossible for the Begin Government to shake off responsibility for the massacre by Maronite forces of hundreds of Palestinian civilians, including women and children, in the refugee camps at Shabra and Chatila. Begin himself -according to his own evidence, later, before the Kahan Commission- had told the Chief of Staff on the night of September 14-15 that the move into West Beirut was 'in order to protect Muslims from the revenge of the Phalangists.'[103]
In fact what the I.D.F. did in West Beirut, under Minister for Defense Ariel Sharon and Chief of Staff Rafael Eytan, was to introduce the said Phalangists into the Palestinian camps, with the mission of clearing out suspected nests of fedayeen combatants. What the Christian soldiers then did, in accordance with the general practice of the Lebanese civil wars, was to take indiscriminate vengeance on the whole population perceived as hostile. This course was predictable in any circumstances; it could be regarded as certain in the immediate aftermath of the murder of the most popular of Maronite leaders. Apparently, the motive of Sharon and Eytan was to spare Israeli casualties, in a war that had already cost more than four hundred Israeli lives. Sharon and Eytan chose to disregard the direct threat to the lives of Palestinian noncombatants, which followed from the use of the armed Maronites.
The massacre which followed was, in one sense, an 'ordinary' massacre by Lebanese standards: one of a series of vendetta butcheries which had been going on sporadically since the outbreak of the Civil War in the mid-seventies. Where it was far from ordinary was that those who carried it out had been unleashed at the command of senior Israeli officers, in an area which Israeli forces had entered in order 'to prevent any possible incident and to secure quiet,' in the wake of the assassination of Bashir Gemayel."
(source: Conor Cruise O'Brien, 'The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism',1986)
[102] Government Press Office, Sept 15; quoted in Legum (ed.), Middle East Contemporary Survey, Vol. VI, p. 151..
[103] Legum (ed.), MECS, Vol. VI, p. 664.
note for Sirotnikov: 'The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Nevertheless this knowledge is of dubious sources and factually incorrect or misleading. True specialists do not need to go to the library and search for quotes proving that this is bull; they prove their right by repeating it a zillion times.
The fact that person after person, who studied Israeli history and Israeli law for final tests in Israel does not agree with this information, proves that this information is most probably wrong.
No one should bother much for one misleaded historian, fellow of Dartmouth College(US) and sympathetic to Israel with an alt.history book, especially since this study is recommended by the Britannica as objective
One has to admit the IDF did succeed excellently to 'secure quiet' .
By the way, it is more or less traditional that the Prime Minister of Israel is either a terrorist, a war crimimal or both.
Ben-Gurion specialised in 'ethnic cleansing', the greatest crime of Israeli history; the most disconcerting of all is probably the career of Yitzhak Shamir, operations commander of the Stern Gang when it was Pro-Nazi!
"Likud's position was forcefully represented by its leader, Yitzhak Shamir, who served as Israel's prime minister from 1986 to 1992. Born in Poland in 1915, Shamir immigrated to Palestine at the age of twenty and was quickly attracted to Jabotinsky's maximalist version of Zionism. He joined the Irgun in 1937 and later became one of the leaders of the Stern Gang, a terrorist organization responsible for carrying out attacks on Palestinians and British officials. Like his Likud predecessor, Menachem Begin, Shamir believed that all the lands of biblical Israel should be incorporated into the Jewish state. As prime minister, he intensified the construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza and committed the government to a policy of incorparating the territories into Israel."
(source: W.L.Cleveland, 'A History of the Modern Middle East',1994)
note for Sirotnikov: 'A History of the Modern Middle East' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Nevertheless this knowledge is of dubious sources and factually incorrect or misleading. True specialists do not need to go to the library and search for quotes proving that this is bull; they prove their right by repeating it a zillion times.
The fact that person after person, who studied Israeli history and Israeli law for final tests in Israel does not agree with this information, proves that this information is most probably wrong.
No one should bother much for one misleaded historian, professor at Simon Fraser University(Canada) with an alt.history book
"Did Yitzhak Yzertinsly -rabbi Shamir- to use his underground nom de guerre, now the Foreign Minister of Israel, know of his movement's proposed confederation with Adolf Hitler? In recent years the wartime activities of the Stern Gang have been thoroughly researched by one of the youths who joined it in the post-war period, when it was no longer pro-Nazi. Baruch Nadel is absolutely certain that Yzertinsky Shamir was fully aware of Stern's plan: 'They all knew about it'.[9]
When Shamir was appointed Foreign Minister, international opinion focused on the fact that Begin had selected the organiser of two famous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948. Concern for his terrorist past was allowed to obscure the more grotesque notion that a would-be ally of Adolf Hitler could rise to the leadership of the Zionist state. When Begin appointed Shamir, and honoured Stern by having postage stamps issued which bore his portrait, he did it with the full knowledge of their past. There can be no better proof than this that the heritage of Zionist collusion with the Fascists and the Nazis, and the philosophies underlying it, carries through to contemporary Israel."
(L.Brenner, 'Zionism in the Age of the Dictators',1983)
[9] Interview with Nadel.
note for Sirotnikov: 'Zionism in the Zge of the Dictators' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Nevertheless this knowledge is of dubious sources and factually incorrect or misleading. True specialists do not need to go to the library and search for quotes proving that this is bull; they prove their right by repeating it a zillion times.
The fact that person after person, who studied Israeli history and Israeli law for final tests in Israel does not agree with this information, proves that this information is most probably wrong.
No one should bother much for one misleaded journalist who is an anti-Zionist Jew with an alt.history book
Sincerely,
S.Kroeze
Last edited by S. Kroeze on 31-07-2002 at 02:54
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:21
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Well DOH! Those were war crimes, if he is responsible - then logically he is a war criminal!
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I wasn't aware that miscalculation of risks and an inability to see the future is a war crime. By god, let's judge everyone!!!
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But then it is evident that you consider the lives of innocent Palestinians beneath your contempt... |
blah blah blah
When was the last time you showed regret towards anything Israeli ?
The christian phalanges were trained by Israel and were specifically taught about combat rules and purity of arms. Israelis thought it sank in. They were proven wrong.
Look, Israeli commanders were also killed some times. The IDF didn't start comitting massacares. We expected the same from the Christians. Post factum, we know we were wrong.
Israeli intelligence apparently didn't report what was really going on in time, and so the massacare carried on uninterrupted.
If you think that this type of thing is impossible, please look at the 1973 war, when Israeli intelligence missed all singlas of the upcoming attack, and Israel was surprised on it's holiest day.
Why has this hapenned. Because intelligence facilities used to compete and to over rule each others. Also, only in the mid 80s, was the reporting mechanism in Military Intelligence rearranged so that messages would arrive quicker, and to lessen beaurocracy.
Furthermore, though I don't recall exact punishments and names, I am aware that most of the intelligence generals which observed the area and failed to stop or report the massacare were indeed punished.
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Yes, he was so badly punished for those murders that he was allowed to build and expand the settlements in the occupied territories etc. Then after that they promoted him to the highest office in all the land! Some punishment! |
He shouldn't be punished for those murders as he didn't commit them. He simply failed to forsee them and stop them in time, partially because of a rotten intelligence mechanism.
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We had you cornered like a rat, spewing contradictory babble about whether the flag was limp - or that the ship was sailing too fast... Man, you didn't know which way to turn... |
Not at all condradictory.
I said that the ship was mispercieved to be travelling at a faster speed than it was. If it was travelling at a slow speed, it's flag could very well have been limp.
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This was the extreme case Siro, they knew exactly where to attack, they knew exactly what they were attacking and they attacked for SO LONG!!! |
They knew where to attack because they had the devices for it.
They knew not what they attacked, because the ship was an intelligence ship, which don't singal their identity, duh!
And long is a relative term.
Why then the attack was suddenly aborted and the seamen were saved? Why live wittnesses of our horrible crimes?
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Surely if it were all a mistake you can tell me all the Israelis that were court martialled or sent into the 'wilderness' as you so euphemistically put it...
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Interesting, I was not aware that Allied forces were court martialled for any of their recent mistakes in afghanistan, be that firing on innocent people, or on their comrades.
I guess that means that you hold Israeli troops to higher standards of discipline than Allied troops? Why the double standard?
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41% of the occupied territories are already under the direct control of the settlements as it is - it is a number that is increasing! |
LOL
you're mixing your numbers.
41% is what is described as indirect control even by the most zealous of left wingers, and this includes all possible effect, to increase the number.
Direct control is IIRC around 8% , probably less.
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I don't need to twist anything - all I have to do is give you enough rope... |
You always twist something.
like presenting the 41% as direct control.
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Yes, no matter how wrong you are - you must not quit!!! Hence, in your increasing desperation you post utter nonsense, and then I ignore it and accuse you for posting nonsense... |
Interesting, you accuse me of posting nonsense?
Usually you post alot of bold print and leave...
Why the change? feel your name is in danger?
You know, even people who hold very similar opinions to you (read : other eurocoms ) have said you're a stooge. Notice, I'm paraphrasing their words since their real words would be censored.
Ask CNN what?
Find me a report by any news agency, which was written prior to the bombing, which proves that Hamas and Jihad signed a truce agreement.
You know what? You won't find any.
You know why? Because no such agreement was ever signed.
What really happenned?
The usual low ranking Hamas members spread everyday propoganda about "Hamas will consider to possibly quit terrorist activities inside the green line, if Israel fully withdraws".
Such ambiguous and meaningless declarations are a dime adozed. Why did this one got famous? because the pals (and yourself) get hold of it for propoganda purposes.
The fact that several terracts were prevented in the days sorrouding the bombing, proves that no such truce was ever in effect or in planning.
Furthermore, it's even more rediculous that you present it, as if Israel would under any circumstance commence talks with Hamas, or withdraw to appease them.
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It was reported that Sharon gave the personal order for this attack - it is inconceivable that he did not realise the ramifications of dropping a 1000kg bomb on a heavily populated block of flats!!! |
Oy, do I really have to go over the basics?
The PM gives the final go on such attacks. But he doesn't oversee every aspect of it. He said "go and kill that terrorist". The means, way and time is up to the IDF.
A special inquiry was set up by left winger Haim Ramon in the Special Operations Knesset Comitte, and among it's findings was that no Hamas truce existed, that work on terracts continued and that the military failed in preventing casualties.
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The tone of your initial posts were that they were acceptable losses... |
Depends whether you mean my objective or subjective opinion.
Objectively - I think they are unacceptable losses since I suspect we haven't done everything in our reasonable power to avoid them. Using a 1 ton bomb seems excessive.
Subjectively - The terrorist dead is accused of having worked on a huge chain of terrorist attacks, that have saved hundreds of Israeli lives. I prefer him and several innocent palestinians dead, than several hundreds innocent Israelis dead.
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So, how many IDF personel have been convicted of these hundreds of 'accidental' deaths... |
How many Allied personel have been convicted of hundreds of accidental deaths in Afghanistan? Yugoslavia? Africa?
See, this is the double standard I'm talking about.
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Are they accidents, is that your definition of an accident - we knew we'd kill civilians, but we didn't mean to!
It's pure murder! |
Murder of persons in the context of war is justified and acceptable. Infact, organized use of brute force to resolve conflicts is exactly what war is about.
Welcome to war, outside of the civil justice system.
If you actually think, that any country will not make a quick math, and prefer several innocent deaths of the other sides, over deaths on his own side, then you're not a bigot but rather a damned fool.
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Civilian death is never acceptable.
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Great.
Have you finished court martialling all soldiers responsible for every civilian death since the signing of the geneva convention? Didn't think so.
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Like a 1000kg bomb hitting an apartment block? |
A 1000kg bomb hitting a random apartment block would indeed be a war crime.
A 1000kg bomb hitting an apartment block of a master terrorist, a combatant responsible for dozens past and expected future deaths is a war action.
Whether it was miscalculated - I need to have the entire intelligence info to tell.
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You claim you're on holiday, guess you'd better get your D/L Shiber to answer this... |
You really expect someone other than be to even blow wind on you?
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:21
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S Kroeze - well at least you have a sense of humor
But again - do you still support your previous contentions that:
1) inter-ethnical (racial) marraige is forbidden in israel
2) israel is an appartheid of 3 societies : ashkenazi, sephardi and arabs
3) a jew is only one who follows the halacha (jewish religious law, mainly the mishna and talmud)
You have previously said you believe in these nonsense, which given all my will power, I'm not able to disprove, since you question everything I present to you, from personal evidence, to actual Israeli law.
As far as your sources go, I randomly chose (L.Brenner, 'Zionism in the Age of the Dictators',1983 and read several chapters.
Not surprisingly, I found a copy of it hosted for free on Radio Islam www.abbc.com , a known racist and anti-setmitist site.
You should read it, as most of your views of judaism and Israel are taken from resources which are featured there.
As far as the book itself goes - it's is exceptionally focused on the goal of proving that Zionism is evil and dictatorial. In doing so it forgets some parts and omits some human sense.
For instance, it blames the Stern gang for trying to contact the Nazis. It presents them as if they betrayed their own people.
However, the opposite is true.
Trying to convince the Nazis to resettle jews, thus keeping them alive, to prevent them from being slaughtered, is IMO a very positive thing.
That aspect, however, is skipped in the book, which tries vehemently to tie Zionism to the Nazis, while it's ideology is based very much on socialism, as proven in the structures of yishuv and Israel.
This book does not even attempt to be an impartial review of Zionism, but rather goes out to provide factual evidence for those whose opinion is set in stone.
That is the main problem with your sources.
Most of them are very partial and you fail to notice that.
You rely on one of the smallest movements in Judaism (Neturei Karta) to define the whole of Judaism. You rely on sources whose entire goal is to prove Zionism is bad, to tell you impartial truth about Zionism.
Have you ever even accidentally read a book that was NOT critical towards Zionism? I doubt it.
So again, it would be stupid of me to argue with you based on points.
You have to change your attitude and understand that you have to take the writers bias into account.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:21
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Explosion in Jerusalem. Tens of casualties.
****ing Arabs. There was supposed to be a good DS9 episode now.
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DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:21
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quote:
Suicide Bomber Kills 6 at Hebrew University
By Steve Weizman
The Associated Press
Wednesday, July 31, 2002; 7:25 AM
JERUSALEM –– An apparent suicide bomber detonated explosives in a crowded cafeteria at Hebrew University during lunchtime Wednesday, and an Israeli official said at least six people were killed and more than 30 wounded.
The blast, at the university’s Frank Sinatra cafeteria, came at a time when classes are not in session. However, students are taking exams and the cafeteria was busy at the time of the blast.
"There was a terrorist and he blew up," a witness, identified only as Shai, told Army Radio. "There is a lot of chaos, a lot of police. It's a mess, there's a lot of wounded."
Sirens wailing, rescue vehicles rushed to the scene, swiftly removing bloodied victims. Sniffer dogs were checking to see if there were any additional bombs in the area.
"What I can say now is that there are a number of dead," said Jerusalem's deputy police chief Ilan Franko. "It's still too early to have a clear picture of what happened."
The Israeli rescue service also said it appeared a number of people were killed, and perhaps as many as 30 were wounded.
The university is located near the border between traditionally Arab east Jerusalem and west Jerusalem.
Most of the students are Jewish, though a large number of Arabs also attend the university. Israel's Channel 2 television said Arab students were believed to be among the casualties.
Wednesday's blast came a day after a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself at a food stand in Jerusalem, killing himself and wounding several Israelis. That explosion was also near the dividing line between east and west Jerusalem.
Palestinian suicide bombers have carried out more than 70 attacks, killing more than 250 Israelis, in the current round of Mideast fighting. Jerusalem has been hit more than any other city. |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Jul31.html
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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Dearest Sirotnikov,
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
S Kroeze - well at least you have a sense of humor
But again - do you still support your previous contentions that:
1) inter-ethnical (racial) marraige is forbidden in israel |
Your eyesight is truly alarmingly bad. You should definitely visit an ophthalmologist as soon as possible.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
In my previous encounter with you, you became all touchy about me not respecting your sources, which are wierd. You have shown yourself to misinterpert even those texts (and decided that mixed marriage is forbidden in israel from a pragraph that meant that jewish religious courts only marry jews together (DUH!)).
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Thanks a lot for demonstrating again your capital reading skills!
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Dear Sirotnikov,
Thanks for trying to have a debate!
Yet as usual you are not reading carefully and fantasizing about what is my opinion on some issue.
And though you are the only one who at least tries to refute arguments, you never base them on sources. Another recent, scholarly study would qualify.
Nor do I think it is relevant, which political movement do support some view. It is the evidence that decides.
Let's use the issue about the 'mixed' marriages.
In my opinion the sentence of Thomas is rather muddled:
"Occasionally the Supreme Court will intervene, but generally it does not intrude on rabbinical rulings, e.g., concerning the validity of Jewish marriages outside the orthodox form or the prohibition of marriages of Jews to Moslems or Christians."
I understand this sentence as follows: The rabbinical courts didn't want to allow marriages between Jews and Christians/Muslims, BUT because the Supreme Court intervened it was finally allowed.
So in the end we seem to agree that 'mixed' marriages are allowed (since when?). Yet is still surprises me that the legislator(parliament) did NOT decree by law.
In a democratic constitutional state that would have been the only possible procedure. This incident -the way I understand it (and please correct me by some source when I am wrong)- shows that the possibility of 'mixed' marriages was not matter-of-course.
And this NOT being matter-of-course is suspect in my view! |
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quote:
2) israel is an appartheid of 3 societies : ashkenazi, sephardi and arabs |
It is obvious Arabs have not ALL civil rights 'Jewish' citizens possess.
Besides that there are many 'unwritten' discriminating laws.
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3) a jew is only one who follows the halacha (jewish religious law, mainly the mishna and talmud) |
I still define a Jew by religion, not by 'race'.
To me 'race' is a most abhorrent concept.
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You have previously said you believe in these nonsense, which given all my will power, I'm not able to disprove, since you question everything I present to you, from personal evidence, to actual Israeli law. |
I am still eagerly waiting for the day when Sirotnikov, the ONLY reliable expert on the subject of Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history, will -in his boundless benevolence- reveal title and writer of the ONLY reliable and recently published academic study on Jewish, Zionist and Israeli history.
My limited intellectual powers will probably not be adequate to comprehend the ONLY revealed truth, but nevertheless I will try.
Since I do not speak, read or write the Language of the Supreme Divine Being, a Hebrew book will not do. I am able to read English, French, German or Spanish.
Thank you!
S.Kroeze
Last edited by S. Kroeze on 31-07-2002 at 18:22
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28-07-2002 22:32
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