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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
S. Kroeze, You make it sound so simple. But it is not.
"The only solution of tile problem put forward by the Arab Higher Committee was the immediate establishment of all independent Arab Government, which would deal with the 400,000 Jews now in Palestine as it thought fit."
This is a quote from the Peel Commisssion report.
The end to the Jewish presence in Palestine was and to, some extent, is still the ultimate Arab goal. A second, Final Solution.
You suggest that we Americans could round up all illegal Mexicans and simply return them to Mexico. But, there are tens of millions of them! There may be some lunatics who could advocate this, but can you imagine the human suffering this would cause if it were actuallly attempted? The mere advocacy of such a position is astoundingly racist.
But this is exactly what you and your Arab brethern were and still are advocating. The fate of the Jews in Palestine, if you had your way, would be the same fate they suffered at the hands of the Nazi's. |
Couldn't put it better myself. Thank you very much Ned for your support. 
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
And then freed them. If you don't believe me you can check the records and see that many Hamas members were killed, captured or conducted a suicide bombing while they were supposed to be in a Palestinian prison according to the Palestinian records.
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link?
quote:
The Oslo agreement decreed that peace and normalization between Israel and the PLO should be made in stages. The first few stages required us to transfer certain lands to the PA, which we did, and the Palestinians were supposed to fight terrorism, which they didn't.
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take a look at the time table in the Oslo, and then waht Israel actually did.
Then take good long look at the number of settlements, the number of settlers, the area they encompassed and your goverments policies toward the settlements.
Ackording to the Oslo the settlements should be frozen, reality wasn't even close...
So on one side you have a goverment that openly declared that they didn;t want to follow Oslo, on the other side you have a goverment that least tried...
quote:
And then, moments after, he made a press conference for arab journalists in which he clearly said that the agreement is bogus and that the PLO has not forgotten that it is obligated to destroy Israel and drive every Jew out of Palestine. You can check and you'll see it's true, every word of it. Or would you rather believe the same man who shook hands and kissed with Saddam Hussein during the gulf war when Iraq was launching missiles at Jewish population centers in Israel.
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Temporal confusion? The gulf war was BEFORE the Oslo...
Furthermore, Arafat has said, in both arabic and english, that he is condemning terrorism.
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
S. Kroeze, You make it sound so simple. But it is not.
"The only solution of tile problem put forward by the Arab Higher Committee was the immediate establishment of all independent Arab Government, which would deal with the 400,000 Jews now in Palestine as it thought fit."
This is a quote from the Peel Commisssion report.
The end to the Jewish presence in Palestine was and to, some extent, is still the ultimate Arab goal. A second, Final Solution. |
You are so immensely prejudiced against Arabs/Muslims...
This not funny anymore!
When you would possess some intellectual integrity you would at least try to substantiate your mantra:
'the Jews were constantly attacked'
You do not even try because you know you couldn't do it.
Compared with some twenty centuries of perpetual persecution of Jews by Christians, the Muslims have acted like 'true Saints'.
When you would read some of the writings of Luther and Augustine -to mention only some rabid Anti-Semites- (when I wished I could mention hundreds of Anti-Semitic Christian thinkers) you would acknowledge that genocide is peculiar to Western civilisation.
You are just projecting the guilty conscience of the Western world on Muslims/Arabs.
In 1948 the Zionists effectively drove out most Arabs. The decision not to allow the refugees to return was taken in June 1948(!). The majority of Arab refugees had fled before the Arab neighbours attacked.
I can show this quoting primary sources (Benny Morris,'The birth of the Palestinian refugee problem',1987). For your information Morris is a (pro-)Israeli historian.
Normally I would have done so now, but I should go sleeping soon. I also doubt whether you have ever read my various quotes carefully.
The policy of the Zionist resulted in 700,000 -possibly more- Arab refugees. In the worst case -there is no reason to believe this, especially since in 1937 the British were still present- some 400,000 Jews would have been expelled.
Whose fault was it that so many settlers had migrated to Palestine in so short a period of time? Definitely not the Arabs!
(Or do you hold the Arabs in Palestine responsible for 2,000 years of Christian anti-Semitism, the pogroms in Eastern Europe and the rise of Nazism? It wouldn't surprise me anymore...)
Your mantra is just a lie! There were no large-scale progroms in the Muslim world.
Without further evidence -I have done my best quoting about a dozen different studies- you should play some other music.
quote:
You suggest that we Americans could round up all illegal Mexicans and simply return them to Mexico. But, there are tens of millions of them! There may be some lunatics who could advocate this, but can you imagine the human suffering this would cause if it were actuallly attempted? The mere advocacy of such a position is astoundingly racist. |
First I didn't advocate such policy. I only pointed out that a sovereign democracy can and should make decisions about migration. The U.S. government should either authenticate those illegal immigrants or expel them. Doing nothing but watch will only exacerbate problems.
By the way, during and before World War II, Zionists and Americans had hardly ever moral objections to refuse European refugees. When you would have read my citation of Ben-Gurion you would know that for him the conquest of Palestine was far more important than saving Jewish life. On various occasions he tried to prevent migration of Jewish refugees to other countries.
When you can show me evidence of Zionist leaders actively helping/saving/rescuing Jewish refugees during World War II, please do! I have not found it.
Of course it is 'nice' to start name-calling. I would like to point out that it is typically 'racist' to make a selection based on race. Muslims select mainly on religion.
quote:
But this is exactly what you and your Arab brethern were and still are advocating. The fate of the Jews in Palestine, if you had your way, would be the same fate they suffered at the hands of the Nazi's. |
Your overexaggerated fear for the safety of Jewish immigrants seems to me mainly the responsibility of those who brought them in this mousetrap.
IF Palestine was the most unsafe place on earth to live for a Jew, which morbid, sadistic crooks had invented the very idea to migrate to this region?
I have often pointed out that this ountry is mostly desert, rather rocky and lacks valuable raw materials. Only a lunatic would promote mass migration to such a dreary place.
I am willing to admit that Muslim tolerance has not improved since the Muslim world was colonised and in part ethnically cleansed.
But without some evidence -something like Mein Kampf- this is just hollow rhetoric. You should give evidence that the Arabs before 1948 were more bloodthirsty than the Zionists and other Europeans.
Perhaps I have to disappoint you: I do not believe I have ever received a Muslim in my house. Doubtless there are millions of very sympathetic Muslims on this planet, but I am not closely acquainted with them.
I am truly sorry.
I am also disappointed that you decided to disregard ALL my questions. I do not expect you to answer them all, but it would be nice when you would answer some.
Especially this part was important:
First I would like to point out that the main target of the revolt were not Jews, but the British coloniser. It seems to me, you deny non-Europeans ALL fundamental human rights, but there are many people -and I am one of them- who think that revolt to colonial rule is legitimate, though violence is regrettable.
Apart from this 'Great Revolt' there were some violent attacks on Jews and Jewish property between 1917 and 1947, but nothing comparable to the Reichskristallnacht, the countless pogroms in Russia and Poland, or the Holocaust. In the years after the 'Great Revolt' it was mainly Zionist terrorism that destabilised Palestine.
When I read your mantra 'the Jews were constantly attacked', I always wonder which history books you read on this issue. Please list them, and please also list at least some of these 'constant attacks'!
You have probably never considered the possibility that some violent outbursts were provoked by Jabotinsky and his Revisionist followers?
Now returning to the comparison with Mexicans in the U.S./Zionists in Palestine:
How did the Zionists behave in Palestine?
Did the Arab -Muslim, Christian AND Jewish- population have any influence on Zionist immigration and acquisition of land?
There was no democratically elected government in Palestine, nor where the British eager to promote it. In the '30s the British considered to experiment with democratic self-government, but because the Zionists opposed it, nothing was accomplished.
Do Mexican immigrants in the U.S. also oppose democracy and self-government?
Last edited by S. Kroeze on 28-07-2002 at 07:11
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cia
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Far away from here
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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CyberGnu,
Insofar as I am NOT about to read all of the above, if we are speaking of the Middle East: a) Israel DID exist at some point in history before present times, and b) there is enough land under 'Muslim' control to provide the Paelstinians with a country of sustainable size.
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cia
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Far away from here
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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CyberGnu,
History is exemplary at teaching us there is one true continuum, and that is that might DOES make right. So as soon as the Palestinians knock the jews into the sea they can say they don't belong there. Review my sig if necessary.
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cia
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Far away from here
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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But one could argue that the jews were 'regaining' their stolen land from a previous aggressor and therefore were entitled to the land due the fact they were a displaced people?
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28-07-2002 05:33
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