16-08-2002 18:37									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Havak One of his columns for the BBC will certainly annoy Neostar - here

I notice the column was written in April. Obviously 4 months before the NZRFU report into the WRC debacle that cost some NZRFU heads. That aside, it's a surprisingly pedestrian piece of writing, tossing up all the old cliches. And I wish he would learn to spell "roll" properly in the last paragraph.

	16-08-2002 18:48									#242
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quote: Who knows why?

Sheer bloody mindedness perhaps?

Seriously it is intriguing – we have FOUR national divisions below the Premiership before we even get down to regional and county stuff, which is still at a reasonable level. Our RFU registered player roster must dwarf the Australian one. And they still pick Mike Tindall – go figure.

quote: Nuh. Australian Rules footy, usually.

And the odd cricket ball?

quote: That's the point I was making to NeoStar.

Yes, but he is a product of the system down there don’t you think – believe the hype - he probably thinks you just need to turn up and pick up the Cook cup before climbing on the plane? Neostar? Boy are you in for a shock.

quote: I'd be surprised if it happened. Money or no money.

I agree – and I’m pretty ambivalent about it – in some ways I would like to see it but it would have to be real or what is the point?

quote: I don't know what you've been using thus far, but I think it's time for a swap

Were it real money a lot more would have gone on the Wallabies at times (given the spreads involved).

quote: I don't know about the NH, but it's been terrible in the SH this season, particularly in the internationals.

Speaking only for England we struggle with the throws on occasion but normally the line-outs are a very solid aspect of our play – we seldom struggle throughout an entire game.

quote: Maybe the Boks should be favourites!

Like I said a few days ago – the Boks are the favourites!

quote: I think it could equally be said that most things NeoStar writes here would annoy the crap out of Zinzan.

Well I don’t know Neostar of course, but I still know where my money goes in that argument.

	16-08-2002 18:50									#243
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quote: And I wish he would learn to spell "roll" properly in the last paragraph.

I'm pretty sure you will find his ghost writer is at fault.

	16-08-2002 19:06									#244
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I also think our French and your English clubs draw from a region somehow. Toulouse for instance draws players from quite far, and has supporters in the whole region (about all the cities around it excpet Colomiers I would bet...

You are right LDiCesare though Colomiers and Stade Toulousain supporters are frequently going to each other's Stadium everytime an important match is played. Of course when the Stade Toulousain is playing against Colomiers, the frontier is rather clear.

About the H-Cup, the Stade Toulousain is targetting a european tittle this year, but as this was already the case last year I won't make any pronostic.

	16-08-2002 19:20									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Sheer bloody mindedness perhaps?

That is one of our many traits.

quote: Seriously it is intriguing – we have FOUR national divisions below the Premiership before we even get down to regional and county stuff, which is still at a reasonable level. Our RFU registered player roster must dwarf the Australian one. And they still pick Mike Tindall – go figure.

I think we've got about 10 or 12 First Div clubs in Sydney and about the same in Brisbane. They've recently been trying to rationalise the numbers in the Sydney comp, trying for fewer teams of higher quality. They, of course, have 2nd and 3rd grade, etc, but most 3rd grade sides are where the Over 40s turn up for a competitive social game. There's a comp of lesser standard in the Canberra area, but apart from that ...

Sydney has a very strong Public Schools (they're our posh schools) comp which turns out ready-made players. By which I mean, the top 2 or 3 schools turn out ready-made players.

But, you really have to wonder how the Wallabies have performed so well over the years. In fact, it's quite extraordinary. Their success and the publicity the game is now getting will attract more to the game, but, as I said once before, it can never reach anything like the depth that even New Zealand has, let alone England.

quote: And the odd cricket ball?

In summer. Of course.

quote: I agree – and I’m pretty ambivalent about it – in some ways I would like to see it but it would have to be real or what is the point?

It's one of those academic questions people like answered.

quote: Were it real money a lot more would have gone on the Wallabies at times (given the spreads involved).

I rather gathered that. You have had a touch of the Enrons about your bookkeeping habits.

quote: Speaking only for England we struggle with the throws on occasion but normally the line-outs are a very solid aspect of our play – we seldom struggle throughout an entire game.

We've never really replaced Phil Kearns as a hooker and thrower. (Not to mention J. Eales, but D. Giffen will be back soon) As I say, Jeremy Paul has so much potential, but still so many weaknesses.

	16-08-2002 19:22									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I'm pretty sure you will find his ghost writer is at fault.

It's still not good enough. Particularly from the Beeb.

	16-08-2002 19:31									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin About the H-Cup, the Stade Toulousain is targetting a european tittle this year, but as this was already the case last year I won't make any pronostic.

I'm going to look out for French rugby on FoxSports this year, Tamerlin. It has been on occasionally.

Are you going to have a bet? The Boks have 6 1/2 points start.

	16-08-2002 19:49									#248
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Spoken like a true Split Enz fan.

Split Enz are good, but Im into the heavier stuff generally (Pantera, Tool, Metallica...etc). You can be loud and sound good without destroying eardrums. High volume alone does not make for good sound.

quote: Not at all. If the Wallabies miss out on the Tri-Nations this year, they have only themselves to blame for falling in a heap against the Boks (first time round) after building a great lead. The "penalty try", OTOH, will be remembered for what it was - a tubby, follically-challenged incompetent at the height of his inconsiderable powers.

I would argue that that ref was not responsible for the result of the Tri-nations.

quote: BTW, I notice that the NH -v- SH club championship challenge is back on the agenda. I can't imagine when they're going to schedule it with the ABs touring at the end of the year.

It would be great if they did have something similar to the super12 up there. Like if they had 4 teams from France, 4 teams from England, 2 from Ireland and 2 from Scotland...

It would be great to have a NH v SH club championship also.

A 6 1/2 point margin sounds ok, put me down for 10 gold on the Wallabies.

	16-08-2002 19:57									#249
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My apologies LDiCesare I missed that post. You are right of course Leicester draw support from all over the county (and beyond – we are accused today of being the Man Utd of rugby in that many of our fans have no connection to the county at all).

But for any point in Leicestershire Tigers are the geographically closest Professional club so I see no problem in the support being county wide? To illustrate that you can generally drive to the city from anywhere in the county in 30 minutes. England simply doesn’t have those lovely wide open sparsely populace areas you see driving south through France.

And Toulouse will have to take that trophy from us Tamerlin – it’s ours and we want to keep it.

Interesting to read the local organisation of clubs there Finbar. I do want to throw a curve ball at you on one thing you mentioned there though…

quote: Their success and the publicity the game is now getting will attract more to the game

Does this worry you in a way? I think we need to recognise, Neostar’s wild optimism aside, that rugby goes in cycles – you can bet Australia are going to lose tri-series and world cups in the future and I can’t help but wonder if the fickle Aussie masses will desert a side that is no longer “our magnificent world cup winning Wallabies”?

quote: It's one of those academic questions people like answered.

Understandable. I would like it answered myself. But if my club are not going into it fully committed I’d rather they didn’t play it at all.

quote: As I say, Jeremy Paul has so much potential, but still so many weaknesses.

Red mist seems to be one – but experience should temper that – after all Owen and Martin (yes, worked him in a post again) are rarities in that regard?

quote: It's still not good enough. Particularly from the Beeb.

Auntie is a mere shadow of her former self in a lot of ways.

I'm deserting my post - so here is to a cracking game tomorrow gentleman - so long for now.

	16-08-2002 19:59									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes – basically. Finbars summary was pretty accurate – we have no provincial sides involved but City/Town clubs. Having said that there are S12 similarities. The Premiership is twelve teams and technically has one relegation spot. However the team coming up into it must pass exhaustive critieria and last season did not do so – so the twelve this year are the same twelve as last year. A League stage takes place between September and May of 22 games (each side home and away) and the team that tops the table at the end of that are ‘League Champions’ and ‘English Champion club’ (plus 2nd seed status for Europe). Once the final table standings are known a separate S12 style elimination tournament starts between the top 8 (1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5 them semis and a final) for a separate trophy. Most sides treat this as a tertiary competition – the only major benefit it carries is top seeding for the European cup next season (unless like this year the trophy is retained by another English club as the holders get protected top seed status). The sponsors originally saw it as the S12 style primary competition but English fans revolted en masse – as I have previously mentioned we hold greater store in the league stage (so for us brumbies would not have deserved a shot at the title for being so inconsistent). Spread across the season are the European competitions – the cup (essentially the premier competition) and shield (where any Premiership team not qualifying for the cup takes part). The European cup has grown into being the top trophy for all UK clubs, not just English. As Tamerlin will tell you it has been in UK hands since 1998. Our points system in the Premiership matches S12 I think – 4 for a win, 2 for a draw, a bonus point for four or more tries and a bonus point for losing by seven or less?

Thanks for the explanation, when does the european cup start then?

quote: Well quite – and a very good chance too. Lets not fall into this trap of swallowing the Aussie hype – an unconvincing win over the Boks at home and an admittedly well ground out but narrow as hell sneak against the ABs does not instantly suggest they can bury the Boks away does it? Be honest?

I dont think so, but I still think the Wallabies will probably win it. Just not by much.

	17-08-2002 03:25									#251
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'm going to look out for French rugby on FoxSports this year, Tamerlin. It has been on occasionally.

Prepare yourself to discover a new kind of game.

quote: Are you going to have a bet? The Boks have 6 1/2 points start.

Sorry for the delay, I'am betting 20 Gold on the Aussies.

	17-08-2002 05:07									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Sorry for the delay, I'am betting 20 Gold on the Aussies.

Got it. Oh, and I heard on the news this morning that an armoured van had been robbed outside Marseilles and 1,000,000 Euros stolen. I have to advise you, Tamerlin, that if you start betting 250,000 Civ Gold in the future, I might just have to ring the French police.

	17-08-2002 05:40									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Does this worry you in a way? I think we need to recognise, Neostar’s wild optimism aside, that rugby goes in cycles – you can bet Australia are going to lose tri-series and world cups in the future and I can’t help but wonder if the fickle Aussie masses will desert a side that is no longer “our magnificent world cup winning Wallabies”?

There's no doubt that some will jump off the bandwagon, but the important thing is that there has been an awakening. Rugby now has the profile it didn't have before. More people are now familiar with the game - positions on the field; rules - well, some of them; even some of the tactics; and so on. Most importantly, they're now aware what a wonderful spectacle rugby can be. In other words, its sheer entertainment value.

The other important factor rugby has going for it is that the Wallabies - while they will probably lose the Tri-Nations, and could well even lose the WRC - will, you would assume, remain somewhere in the top bracket of 3 or 4 teams. So it's not as if they will drop off the radar. And, with rugby being an international game - unlike the L-word and Australian Rules - there are always going to be Test matches, and there's nothing the Australian sporting public loves more than a Test match, whatever the sport.

At the same time, as I've said before, it's never going to supplant Australian Rules in this country. (I have no doubt it will roll that L-word) So the bottom line remains that it will never be the religion that it is in New Zealand nor have the breadth and depth that exists in England. But growth is growth, and that's okay by me.

quote: But if my club are not going into it fully committed I’d rather they didn’t play it at all.

It would be pointless. In fact, I'll bet 10 Civ Gold now - which is the 10 Civ Gold I'm hanging onto because no one identified Puccini's La Boheme as the source of the line I paraphrased - that the match doesn't happen.

quote: Red mist seems to be one – but experience should temper that – after all Owen and Martin (yes, worked him in a post again) are rarities in that regard?

I wiped a tear from my eye when I read the M-word. A long-lost friend returneth. Tonight will be a very, very big test for Jeremy Paul. And The Plank. If they can resist the Boks' provocation, it will be a step forward.

quote: Auntie is a mere shadow of her former self in a lot of ways.

Here too. The ABC has just about been destroyed by this thick-eared, Thatcherite government.

	17-08-2002 05:49									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes, but he is a product of the system down there don’t you think – believe the hype - he probably thinks you just need to turn up and pick up the Cook cup before climbing on the plane? Neostar? Boy are you in for a shock.

Im know what the Cook Cup is

A 'product'? Your talking about the commercialism, right? You know what fellas - Im detecting some age difference, firstly some of the things you talk about are pretty far back and it seems the decades of following rugby (in particular, Aussie rugby) have somewhat soured your view of it.

Just a bit of cynicism here and there. I suppose it happens to everyone as the years go by and the mind & bones become weary...

quote: Aussies get their revenge By Zinzan Brooke

Another bitter one. I can't say Im happy NZ was booted out, it is so close and deserves to host some games (especially in comparison to some places in OZ they are being held).

I also belive Bob Carr and co. could have done more to help the situation but the fact was (from what I read) the operation over there was in shambles (Zinzan Brooke doesn't seem to undertsnad how bad they messed up) and I will be missing the vocal kiwi crowds.

As a concession, maybe they should reduce airfares for them to come over.

	17-08-2002 05:50									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Split Enz are good, but Im into the heavier stuff generally (Pantera, Tool, Metallica...etc).

I'm old enough to remember the originals - Led Zepplin, etc - of which most of those are pale imitations.

quote: It would be great if they did have something similar to the super12 up there. Like if they had 4 teams from France, 4 teams from England, 2 from Ireland and 2 from Scotland...

Why? They've already got the 6 Nations.

quote: It would be great to have a NH v SH club championship also.

It would be. But when? The only suitable time would seem to be towards the end of the year, but that's when the national teams tour, and there's a lot more money in Test matches than one-off club games.

quote: A 6 1/2 point margin sounds ok, put me down for 10 gold on the Wallabies.

*Wellington echoes with the sound of tearing paper as Caligastia's citizenship is revoked*

	17-08-2002 05:57									#256
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar You know what fellas - Im detecting some age difference

Picked it in one! Havak was at Trafalgar. In fact, the famous line is a misquote. I'm reliably informed that Nelson, in fact, said: "Kiss me, Havak".

quote: As a concession, maybe they should reduce airfares for them to come over.

They're already paddling over here in bathtubs as it is!

PS. I wonder where AndyDog, Mickeyj and academia have got to?

	17-08-2002 06:10									#257
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Picked it in one! Havak was at Trafalgar. In fact, the famous line is a misquote. I'm reliably informed that Nelson, in fact, said: "Kiss me, Havak".

And what about the Finbar? Don't tell me he helped build the Harbour Bridge, endured the Great Depression and fought in Vietnam

	17-08-2002 06:32									#258
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Starting line ups:

Australia
Chris Latham, Ben Tune, Matthew Burke, Daniel Herbert, Stirling Mortlock, Stephen Larkham, George Gregan (c), Toutai Kefu, George Smith, Owen Finegan, Justin Harrison, Nathan Sharpe, Ben Darwin, Jeremy Paul, Bill Young
Reserves: Brendan Cannon, Rod Moore, Matt Cockbain, David Lyons, Chris Whitaker, Elton Flatley, Mat Rogers, David Croft

South Africa: unchanged from last game.

quote: A 6 1/2 point margin sounds ok, put me down for 10 gold on the Wallabies.

Caligastia is losing his NZ origins living in America...

	17-08-2002 06:43									#259
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar And what about the Finbar? Don't tell me he helped build the Harbour Bridge, endured the Great Depression and fought in Vietnam

Moi? Who do you think lit the fuse for the Big Bang?

	17-08-2002 06:55									#260
	Betting Update - Final Tri-Nations Match - 17/8/02 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Okay, lads, with the bets placed to date, our Bank A/c stands as follows:

academia 92
Andydog 153
Caligastia 37-10 = 27
finbar 130-30 = 100
Havak 46-20 = 26
LDiCesares 104-15 = 89
Mickeyj 121
NeoStar 134-20 = 114
ravagon 114
Tamerlin 69-20 = 49

The Boks have 6 1/2 points start, meaning the Wallabies have to win by 7 or more; or the Boks can lose by 6 or less, draw or win the match. The pool currently stands at 115 Civ Gold.

The bets have been placed as follows:

Boks

finbar 30
Havak 20
LDiCesares 15

Wallabies

Caligastia 10
NeoStar 20
Tamerlin 20

I won't calculate the potential winnings yet because one of the other lads might pop in between now and kick-off.

Yes, I'm backing the Boks. I think history is against the Wallabies, and, I have to say, sadly, I doubt some of the Wallabies' self-discipline in the face of the Boks' provocation.

	17-08-2002 07:09									#261
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'm old enough to remember the originals - Led Zepplin, etc - of which most of those are pale imitations.

Of course, you cant beat the "Good old days" can you? *hands Finbar his cane* IMO there are just as many crap bands today as there were back then, but you hear more about them. I like the old stuff too, but some of the newer bands also have a lot to offer.

quote: *Wellington echoes with the sound of tearing paper as Caligastia's citizenship is revoked*

Oh well, I always have my british passport...

quote: Originally posted by finbar Caligastia is losing his NZ origins living in America...

Naaaa...Im just trying to win some of my money back. The advantage of betting with your head instead of your heart is that either way you have something to be happy about.

Im am a bit suprised to see Finbar betting against the Wallabies though.

Cant wait for the match!!!!!

	17-08-2002 07:16									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Im am a bit suprised to see Finbar betting against the Wallabies though.

Betting with my head. The Wallabies haven't won at Jo'burg for 39 years, meaning better teams than this one have failed there. Obviously I hope they win, but for the purposes of this betting exercise, I think they're up against it.

	17-08-2002 07:21									#263
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Betting with my head. The Wallabies haven't won at Jo'burg for 39 years, meaning better teams than this one have failed there. Obviously I hope they win, but for the purposes of this betting exercise, I think they're up against it.

Yeah, but SA rugby is recovering from perhaps the lowest point in history... - in any case, I welcome your contribution to the pot.

	17-08-2002 09:18									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yeah, but SA rugby is recovering from perhaps the lowest point in history

Judging by last week - and their game against us here - they're recovering at a rapid rate of knots.

	17-08-2002 10:02									#265
	Re: Betting Update - Final Tri-Nations Match - 17/8/02 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by finbar Yes, I'm backing the Boks. I think history is against the Wallabies, and, I have to say, sadly, I doubt some of the Wallabies' self-discipline in the face of the Boks' provocation.

Forget the R-TGTPIH Disciplinary Panel, this calls for the Australian Rugby Disciplinary Panel to address it.

Gentlemen, is this man guilty of treason?

Buddha - Guilty

Poido - Guilty

Gordon - Guilty

Judgment: Gregan and his boys will make him pay dearly for this...

	17-08-2002 10:07									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Naaaa...Im just trying to win some of my money back. The advantage of betting with your head instead of your heart is that either way you have something to be happy about.

Well Caligastia, you have some sort of excuse having only 37 gold - unlike a certain traitor sitting nicely on 130...

	17-08-2002 10:22									#267
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Got it. Oh, and I heard on the news this morning that an armoured van had been robbed outside Marseilles and 1,000,000 Euros stolen. I have to advise you, Tamerlin, that if you start betting 250,000 Civ Gold in the future, I might just have to ring the French police.

I'm thinking 1 000 000 Euros probably comes to more like 37.25 civ gold using current exchange rates.


A 6.5 point margin!
Crikey. I would have put it at almost double that given the way the Wallabies will have to play to try and win the series.
And, I hasten to add, before somebody takes such a marginal (no pun intended) difference between the Aussies this week and the AB's last week, as some form of favouritism of Australia over NZ, I categorically refute any such allegations.
(I think that almost made sense ).

20 on the Australians please finbar , if I'm not too late again.

[Note to self: You'll miss your own funeral if you're not careful ]

	17-08-2002 10:31									#268
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon 20 on the Australians please finbar , if I'm not too late again.

Ah - The kiwis Caligastia and ravagon have realised their folly and turned to the side they secretly know rules world rugby Good work folks, welcome aboard.

Next thing you know, Havak will change his bet

	17-08-2002 11:50									#269
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon 20 on the Australians please finbar , if I'm not too late again.

Gotcha.

	17-08-2002 12:04									#270
	Betting Update #2 Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

After ravagon's bet, the Bank A/c now reads as follows:

academia 92
Andydog 153
Caligastia 37-10 = 27
finbar 130-30 = 100
Havak 46-20 = 26
LDiCesares 104-15 = 89
Mickeyj 121
NeoStar 134-20 = 114
ravagon 114-20 = 94
Tamerlin 69-20 = 49

The pool currently stands at 135 Civ Gold.

The bets have been placed as follows:

Boks

finbar 30
Havak 20
LDiCesares 15

Wallabies

Caligastia 10
NeoStar 20
ravagon 20
Tamerlin 20

If your bet wins, you will receive (rounded up or down accordingly, including your original stake) as follows:

finbar 53
Havak 35
LDiCesares 27

Caligastia 19.5
NeoStar 38.5
ravagon 38.5
Tamerlin 38.5