10-08-2002 01:43									#601
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't care if people do it for religious reasons

Don't care if they do WHAT for religious reasons? Millions of people around the world think there's a religious basis for cutting off a girl's clitoral hood, yet all Western countries have outlawed this traditional procedure. Why should we be protecting girls' clitoral hoods but not boys' foreskins?

	10-08-2002 01:46									#602
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There are far more serious and obvious medical problems that arise from circumcising girls than boys. Circumcision in boys is mostly cosmetic, the biggest risk is from the potential for the procedure to be botched or infection right afterwards, it's not a very serious medical problem. Circumcision of girls is a different story, which is why it's not allowed.

	10-08-2002 01:46									#603
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm just here to be in awe of people about to restart a major flamewar over something so seemingly insignifigant, especially in light of the fact that tandee's decision is already made.

Oh bah humbug. I don't think its flaming either, but if you don't like it, you're free to not participate.

	10-08-2002 01:49									#604
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I'm like a moth to a flame though.

	10-08-2002 01:55									#605
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I'm pretty flamed out myself. My irritation with Asher is not limited to this thread, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
But while I'm on the subject, I do believe that Asher is a very intelligent and insightful young man, even if he does think I'm a backwards old idiot.
I just want him to know that time changes perspective. Believe it or not, I was once much like you.

That's about as insulting as I can be right now.
My beautiful, horribly disfigured son is coming to see me for lunch, so I'm in a good mood.

	10-08-2002 01:55									#606
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God, it's about time for this to be over. What time do the Chicagoans get home from work? Please, end our suffering!!!

	10-08-2002 01:58									#607
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This whole thing is NOT of primordial importance.

	10-08-2002 01:59									#608
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quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor Well, I don't know about your particular circumstances, but my OBGYN doesn't do them, and the pediatrician group does. Well, things that are right for Africans are not necessarily right for Americans. If you possess a computer and are here on this forum, you're probably about a million times more likely to have the means of proper hygiene than the people she was working with.

Sorry...that's not the status quo. An OBGYN that delivers children is a "cut" above and also holds surgery status...at least at our hospital. She has to really know her **** in order to deal with all of the issues of pregnancy, childbirth and the horrendous act of foreskin removal.

Now you're saying Africans are a million times dirtier than me? Tsk...tsk.

See how easy it is to twist words and make someone the bad guy?

	10-08-2002 02:00									#609
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JohnT-- We don't all have idyllic lives...some of us like to work out aggression on the forums. Cheaper than a shrink by far.

	10-08-2002 02:02									#610
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak JohnT-- We don't all have idyllic lives....

More's the pity.

	10-08-2002 02:03									#611
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Exactly.

	10-08-2002 02:06									#612
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quote: Originally posted by Asher There are far more serious and obvious medical problems that arise from circumcising girls than boys. Circumcision in boys is mostly cosmetic, the biggest risk is from the potential for the procedure to be botched or infection right afterwards, it's not a very serious medical problem. Circumcision of girls is a different story, which is why it's not allowed.

Well, female circumcision used to be a recognized medical procedure in the US, and was covered by Blue Shield insurance until 1974. A Dr. W. G. Rathmann, of Inglewood California, wrote in a US magazine in 1959 that female circumcision would improve hygiene and prevent divorce:

http://www.courtchallenge.com/temp/fgm1.gif

As for male circumcision "not being a serious medical problem," it's a helluva serious problem for boys in Africa who either die or lose their penis as a result of tribal circumcision. When done in the same unhygienic conditions, male circumcision is just as dangerous as the female variety.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200208020052.html

"Fourth circumcision initiate dies in Limpopo"

Is this what you call de minimis, Imran?

	10-08-2002 02:08									#613
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Maybe Asher should start the "female vs. male" circumcision thread now...this one's had it.

	10-08-2002 02:18									#614
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Would Ming be so lax about letting a Finnthread run too long? No! Clearly, in this forum, foreskins are seen as more important than Finns!

	10-08-2002 02:22									#615
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Please for the love of god, don't listen to a bunch of computer dorks about this. DO IT. seriously...geez....Save the boy the anguish...

	10-08-2002 02:22									#616
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JohnT looks in his copy of A List of The World's Most Important Things, unabridged :

989,435: Foreskins

...

2,354,893: Finns

Looks like you're right, Stefu.

	10-08-2002 02:23									#617
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quote: this painful ritual as an infant makes the majority of uncut men whiny little panty-waists, as seems to be the case at Apolyton, anyways.

*stammering*. . uh, but, hey!. . .err, um. . . ahh, **** it.

	10-08-2002 02:45									#618
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Maybe Asher should start the "female vs. male" circumcision thread now...this one's had it.

How about calling it "Should I circumcise my daughter?"

	10-08-2002 03:27									#619
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CUT IT!!!!

Why? I have seen a few, ahem, adult movies in my time, and I've never seen an uncircumcised penis in one.

You could be ruining his calling in life!!!!!!!

	10-08-2002 04:59									#620
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quote: In a court of law the opinion of recognized experts is NOT irrelevant. If the consensus of opinion in the medical profession is that male circumcision is not medically justified, then that is the standard that is applied

How does the consensus of whether it is 'medically justified' fit in with whether it is de minimis or not? You seem to be throwing around things in trying to support you wild assertions. ONE guy says it isn't de minimis... the rabbis probably thought he was asking if it was no/minimum pain to the infant, not if the cutting of foreskin is such a minimum wounding to be irrelevant.

	10-08-2002 08:14									#621
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Ah, I have returned from vacation just in time to prolong your misery.

There are risks and benefits with the procedure. In the first year of life circumcision clearly decreases the risk of urinary tract infections in boys, but on the downside the risk of skin infections and permanent disfigurement ( Do you know how small the penis of a baby is? Did you know that the circumcision will be handled by an obstetric resident who has been up all night?) cancels out the benefit. Circumcision also protects against cancer of the foreskin, a condition which is frankly fairly rare in developed countries.
Circumcision may also convey partial protection against acquiring the HIV virus, but the problem is do you want to sell partial protection against a universally fatal infection? Those who believe in the protective value of the procedure may feel that other protective measures are unnecessary and thereby cancel out the protective effect.

	10-08-2002 08:24									#622
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Personally I think the main benefit is hygiene. You don't have to clean or worry about the damn thing ever again for the rest of your life.

	10-08-2002 08:26									#623
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Personally I think the main benefit is hygiene. You don't have to clean or worry about the damn thing for the rest of your life.

Spoken like a person who has no idea what it's like to have to clean it in the first place.

Seriously though, that's such an incredibly stupid argument I can't tell if you're joking or not.

	10-08-2002 08:29									#624
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Yes well Asher at least I've got an awful lot use out of mine - unlike some people I could name who'll be lucky if they ever get beyond their own greasy hand

	10-08-2002 08:39									#625
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yes well Asher at least I've got an awful lot use out of mine - unlike some people I could name who'll be lucky if they ever get beyond their own greasy hand

Gee Horse, that hurts. It really does.

If only I wasn't a pudgey middleaged man, THEN I could get laid.

	10-08-2002 08:41									#626
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Ah, c'mon Asher. That's below the belt...right below the gut.



Im just kidding, of course...

	10-08-2002 08:42									#627
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quote: If only I wasn't a pudgey middleaged man, THEN I could get laid.

...He says to a man with 4 kids...

	10-08-2002 08:44									#628
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: If only I wasn't a pudgey middleaged man, THEN I could get laid. ...He says to a man with 4 kids...

You forgot to count his bastard child.

	10-08-2002 08:44									#629
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT ...He says to a man with 4 kids...

I know he's got 4 kids.
That doesn't mean he's done it more than 4 times. And you know what they say about those married couples as they age.

Plus it's all about quality over quantity.

	10-08-2002 08:51									#630
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This may have been pointed out (not read the the whole thread), but I feel it's worth articulating the reaction of the average British gentile male, who's rather unfamiliar with the concept.

OOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!!! ****ing ***!!! I mean, OOOWWWWW!!!!! *****!!! How can you can even think of ****ing your own kid's ****?

Oooffff!!!

I mean, one tries to be broad-minded and all that, but... NOOOOO!!!