09-08-2002 23:53									#541
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quote: I am also wondering if not going through this painful ritual as an infant makes the majority of uncut men whiny little panty-waists, as seems to be the case at Apolyton, anyways.

Well, Ron is an exception to the norm on this thread then .

	09-08-2002 23:53									#542
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Tell that to some people who have had their ears pierced, and felt a shitload of pain when it was done.

Well, I certainly am not an expert in the matter, but I've never known anyone who felt a shitload of pain from getting their ears pierced, unless of course they rubbed it in dirt and it got infected. I certainly felt no pain. But of course, if you cut off the tip of my ear, it would probably hurt more than putting a small needle through it. And if the tip of my ear was connected to and in fact surrounded a more sensitive area, I'm quite certain it would hurt even more.

	09-08-2002 23:54									#543
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Leaving it on at least means it can always be taken off later.

By George, I think he's got it!!!

	09-08-2002 23:55									#544
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Yeah, that's the frenulum, they have to be quite careful about that when circumcising...it should remain intact though, there is no reason really for it to be removed...

	09-08-2002 23:57									#545
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Oh that... Yeah, I have that still .

	09-08-2002 23:57									#546
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I hear it might cause stuttering and bad table manners.
Chop it off!

	09-08-2002 23:58									#547
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy The most sensitive part of the entire penis. Think it's called the "frenulum" or something. The strand linking the inside of the hood with the bell-end just below the jap's eye. Stop me if I'm getting too technical.

Well, I'm certainly not an expert here either, but that is right where it must be detached. That area is, umm, still sensitive in circumcized men, however, but as I far as I can see that is right where it is cut.

	10-08-2002 00:03									#548
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui v I know what 'de minimus' is, but it seems like you are now changing your tune. There was no de minimus justification before... and if anything, cutting off the foreskin for religious reasons is de minimus. I sure don't miss it any. I get enough sexual satisfaction from my penis as it is.

A wounding does not become "de minimis" simply because it's done for religious reasons. If u know what "de minimis" is, then how come u can't spell it.

quote: I get enough sexual satisfaction from my penis as it is.

Glad to hear it, because it can never be restored to its original condition!

	10-08-2002 00:05									#549
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quote: Originally posted by Tom31 If u know what "de minimis" is, then how come u can't spell it.

Oooh, harsh....

	10-08-2002 00:05									#550
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Well next time I break wind at the dinner table, I'll blame my frenulum

	10-08-2002 00:07									#551
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quote: Originally posted by Tom31 A wounding does not become "de minimis" simply because it's done for religious reasons. If u know what "de minimis" is, then how come u can't spell it.

Perhaps he also thinks Vas Deferens is a Dutch football team

	10-08-2002 00:09									#552
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Perhaps he also thinks Vas Deferens is a Dutch football team

AH HA HA HA HA Ha ha.... eh ha.... heh...

	10-08-2002 00:21									#553
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Are you still talking about it?

	10-08-2002 00:21									#554
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I like the way that the most rabid anti-circumcisionists are those who have not had it done themselves and have no idea what it is like having a circumcised penis. Get your foreskin chopped off and then lecture on the rights and wrongs of it, because until then, you really have no idea.

PH, most of us aren't saying it's hell on earth with a circumcised penis, in fact it's not much different at all in the places where it matters.

It's just that it's unnecessary unless they're doing it because of a medical problem, or even for religious purposes.

To be extreme again, I could have my toe cut off and go on and on about how it really doesn't affect my life very much and some girls *prefer* a "unique" guy, but it's still not right to go cut off people's toes without medical or religous reasons to do so.

	10-08-2002 00:21									#555
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quote: A wounding does not become "de minimis" simply because it's done for religious reasons. If u know what "de minimis" is, then how come u can't spell it.

If you know what 'you' means how come you can't spell it . I'm sorry but critisizing one on spelling errors is the sign of a crap debater. But then, I already knew that about you.

Speaking as someone going into law school, I damn well know what it means. And cutting off foreskin is a minimum violation to be close to non-important. The de minimis is done for religious reasons.

Do you understand anything? Obviously you have no legal training of any kind, because you can't understand that cutting foreskin is a de minimis wounding. Get yourself a lawyer before you purport to speak on legal matters in the future.

	10-08-2002 00:24									#556
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quote: Perhaps he also thinks Vas Deferens is a Dutch football team

LOL... but is he fit?

Asher: He was talking more to Tom, who can't even see it for religious reasons.

	10-08-2002 00:24									#557
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Did anyone mention that people without foreskin are resistant to AIDS? didn't bother to read the whole thread.

Obviously not. There are more reports saying either there's no real difference between cut and uncut men and AIDS and that cut men are more vulnerable than there are saying uncut men are more vulnerable. There are reports saying all three things, 28 known such reports, and when the data from all 28 reports is put together, there is a "significantly higher chance" for cut men to get HIV -- if they DO NOT WEAR A CONDOM. This is a moot point, you should be wearing a condom!

Modern studies have tended to show the opposite of what you're saying, anyway, so I wouldn't try to use it anymore.

BTW, if you're interested, I posted a couple links in this thread that specifically debunked and told where errors were made in the sampling for the studies who said uncut men are more vulnerable...

	10-08-2002 00:25									#558
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Do you understand anything?

Ooooh, also unneccesarily harsh.


I don't know how to spell "unneccesarily" anymore. Is that right? I think I'm losing connections in my brain that have to do with spelling.

	10-08-2002 00:26									#559
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550+ posts and still going? That new mod is slacking on the job, heh?

	10-08-2002 00:28									#560
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quote: I don't know how to spell "unneccesarily" anymore. Is that right? I think I'm losing connections in my brain that have to do with spelling.

Does that mean you don't know what unneccesarily means... Perhaps I don't as well .

Spelling mistakes as debating techniques are trivial and stupid. Says more about the idiot that makes the point than the person who made the mistake.

And John, yeah, he's a slacker .

	10-08-2002 00:28									#561
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak Whatever...I find it very amusing that the people who are sitting in lofty judgement have not and probably will not ever face the topic, so you really have nothing to say as far as I'm concerned.

The problem here, Sneak, is you're boiling down the issue to a simple "I have a kid and you don't, so I suddenly have a better opinion on the matter". Incase you didn't read the first post, you'll see she asked for *MEN* to post about how they feel about being cut/uncut, not about what it's like for a parent to agonize over the decision.

Since we've decided (along with almost every pediatric society in the western world) that there is more harm than good in circumcision, and since you're not doing the circumcision for religious purposes, you're doing it for some other reason that you yourself don't even want to tell us. Was it so he'd look more like daddy, Sneak, or do you have some deep logic behind it?

	10-08-2002 00:30									#562
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT 550+ posts and still going?

Join in the hilarity.

	10-08-2002 00:31									#563
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Good God! Why is this thread so active? It is even more pointless than the Finn club threads.

	10-08-2002 00:32									#564
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Spelling mistakes as debating techniques are trivial and stupid. Says more about the idiot that makes the point than the person who made the mistake.

I agree. See my first "harsh" post above. Do it now!

	10-08-2002 00:33									#565
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quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor I think the AIDS issue, while interesting, is moot. For one thing, there are so many ways to counterbalance any supposed higher chance of contracting it, and for another, if one wanted to guide all one's action towards one thing (that probably wouldn't happen) NOT happening, there are other unjustifiable-in-other-ways actions one could take. Unless he IS (or probably is)going to contract AIDS if he isn't circumcised, I don't see how it makes for justification.

Perhaps as a useful prevention.

However he can always get circumzsized later if the evidence is overwhelming in 5- 10 years time, actually until he starts having sex, aids vaccine should be available too

But you never know what the extra stuff in skin can protect him from than again??? Anyway a personal decision it is...

	10-08-2002 00:34									#566
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Obviously you have no legal training of any kind, because you can't understand that cutting foreskin is a de minimis wounding.

Well, you might be interested in reading this letter from the lawyer who founded the McGill Centre for Medicine, Ethics and Law in Montreal:

http://www.courtchallenge.com/letters/somer1.html

Note the following sentence:

"However, even the rabbis with whom I talked agreed that male infant circumcision is not de minimis."

	10-08-2002 00:36									#567
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The opinion of someone else is irrelevent, the matter should be debated rationally, not be done by a process of namedropping..

	10-08-2002 00:36									#568
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Incase you didn't read the first post, you'll see she asked for *MEN* to post about how they feel about being cut/uncut, not about what it's like for a parent to agonize over the decision.

Woo hoo! Someone who can read!

I admit, I've gone into smiley paradise, and won't likely be coming back soon.

	10-08-2002 00:37									#569
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onefootinthegrave, You couldn't express my opinion any better .

	10-08-2002 00:38									#570
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Perhaps as a useful prevention. However he can always get circumzsized later if the evidence is overwhelming in 5- 10 years time

Modern studies show the opposite trend, actually. Here are some links to get your started:

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/vanhowe4/
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/hiv_statement2001.html
http://www.reproline.jhu.edu/englis...-3/nt1832a.html

In short, all of the studies showing uncut men are more succeptable tend to come from Africa, where there also tend to be inherent educational/social issues between who is circumcised and uncircumcised, depending on tribes, etc. As soon as you look at data in the western world, like the US, the situation reverses itself:

From the last article I cited:

quote: In the United States, on the other hand, data from the 1992 National Health and Social Life Survey, a nationally representative sample of 1,511 men and 1,921 women between the ages of 18 and 59, showed that there was no evidence of a prophylactic role for circumcision in regard to sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). In fact, circumcised men were slightly more likely to have had both a bacterial and a viral STD in their lifetime.2 Likewise, it has been observed that circumcision of men had no significant effect on the incidence of common STDs (genital herpes, genital warts and non-gonococcal urethritis) in Australia.