09-08-2002 03:57									#31
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quote: I'm all for letting the white farmers come over here, and have us cut off all aid. Then we'll see how well the blacks do when they have 'equality'.

International aid really doesn't add up to that much, hell First World farm subsidies hurt the Third World at least as much as foreign aid helps.

	09-08-2002 04:05									#32
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That would be the case if they hadn't dispossesed all the white farmers, however now international aid could prevent starvation on a mass scale. But as far as I'm concerned to hell with Zimbabwe, we owe them nothing.

	09-08-2002 04:22									#33
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Hasn't the EU enfocred an embargo there?

	09-08-2002 04:37									#34
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Some limited sanctions, assert freezing and the like for the ruling elite. Hasn't really had much effect, because sanctions rarely affect the actions of a government (see Iraq).

	09-08-2002 04:47									#35
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Mugabe would like nothing more than to turn this whole disaster into a racism issue in which he could unite most of Africa against the "colonial power". Sadly for the average Zimbabwean, that isn't the case.

This isn't about race. This is about power, and more specifically Mugabe holding on to it. There have been some awful cases of persecution, torture and murder of white farmers, but the bare truth is that the average black Zimbabwean is now starving and penniless because of Robert Mugabe's evil reign. He bankrupted the country sending the military to fights conflicts (notably in DR Congo, I think) that he had no reason to involve himself in, and his persecution of landowning farmers (both white and black) has meant that the majority of his country is now starving.

He then fixed his own election through ballot-rigging, intimidation and violence, before accusing the MDC (Movement for Democratic Change) leader Morgan Tsvangirai of treason. He then sought to "punish" the regions that voted against him despite the intimidation (see links below) by withholding food aid.

Mugabe is a monster. This isn't about black and white. This is about an evil dictator that is prepared to sacrifice his citizens, whatever their colour, in order to cling to power.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2163328.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2159418.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2157949.stm

	09-08-2002 06:19									#36
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quote: Seriously, I don't think the ANC has done a bang up job, but for the most part, the only dramatic change has been that the squalid conditions of the black areas have been expanded into the white areas.

So basically instead of one group getting screwed, everyone gets screwed. Sounds like progress to me

quote: There really wasn't anything for black SA's to fall back on. This isn't to excuse the rampant crime, etc. -

No it does not excuse the crime, in any way, shape, or form, but an argument could be made that the blacks were better - ie safer - under white rule because of a much lower crime rate.

quote: I'm just pointing that when you release an underclass that forms the vast majority of the population from brutal opression, you shouldn't expect everything to be rosey...

And, obviously, you shouldn't expect those same people to NOT be hypocrites, either, and do the same to the whites that the whites did to them

	09-08-2002 07:07									#37
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che- didn't you yourself say in one of the Palestine threads that removed peoples have about 3 generations to reclaim their land, in your mind, before it passes to the conquerors? IE grandchildren who knew people who still once owned the land? If you still stand by that statement, haven't the 3 generations passed by now? (then again, maybe Zimbabwe was an exception and was only colonized in the '20's? Somehow I doubt that)

Also, saying the land was stolen coming from a communist, among whom famous sayings include "all property is robbery," tend to mean little. Even if it is fact true in this case.

	09-08-2002 08:12									#38
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what he's attempting to accomplish is somewhat noble. However, the means are atrocious and without clear thought involved.

	09-08-2002 08:22									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Those farmers should just take what they can while they leave, and their torch their land, and put salt in the ground.

No they shouldn't.

	09-08-2002 08:23									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger No they shouldn't.

Because they will be shot?

	09-08-2002 08:24									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Private property that was taken by force from the original people. All that land is stolen property to begin with. None of the whites there have a legitimate claim to the land. Their ancestors didn't buy the land, they conquered the savages and then prevented them by law from owning any land. If you are in possession of stolen property, you don't have any rights to it. And unlike the American Indians, the local Africans did believe they owned the land. From a national standpoint, Mugabe is shooting the country in the foot. Even if all the land is farmed, food production is going to collapse. I doubt most of the people who get land will know who to farm it well enough to produce the same kinds of surpluses that the previous farmers did.

Exactly the point. David, you're astounding; how is re-expropriating expropriated land wrong?

	09-08-2002 08:25									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Because they will be shot?

Because they would be condemning even more people to starvation than the muddleheaded actions of Mugabe already are.

	09-08-2002 08:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire che- didn't you yourself say in one of the Palestine threads that removed peoples have about 3 generations to reclaim their land, in your mind, before it passes to the conquerors? IE grandchildren who knew people who still once owned the land? If you still stand by that statement, haven't the 3 generations passed by now? (then again, maybe Zimbabwe was an exception and was only colonized in the '20's? Somehow I doubt that) Also, saying the land was stolen coming from a communist, among whom famous sayings include "all property is robbery," tend to mean little. Even if it is fact true in this case.

The difference is that the blacks didn't go away and come back later, nor is this a new issue; Zimbabwe was only given "democratic" home rule in the last 30(?) years. Black zimbabweans were kept from reacquiring possession of their former property by a system of racist/colonialist laws which are in the living memory of many inhabitants.

	09-08-2002 08:32									#44
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Mugabe would like nothing more than to turn this whole disaster into a racism issue in which he could unite most of Africa against the "colonial power". Sadly for the average Zimbabwean, that isn't the case. This isn't about race. This is about power, and more specifically Mugabe holding on to it. There have been some awful cases of persecution, torture and murder of white farmers, but the bare truth is that the average black Zimbabwean is now starving and penniless because of Robert Mugabe's evil reign. He bankrupted the country sending the military to fights conflicts (notably in DR Congo, I think) that he had no reason to involve himself in, and his persecution of landowning farmers (both white and black) has meant that the majority of his country is now starving. He then fixed his own election through ballot-rigging, intimidation and violence, before accusing the MDC (Movement for Democratic Change) leader Morgan Tsvangirai of treason. He then sought to "punish" the regions that voted against him despite the intimidation (see links below) by withholding food aid. Mugabe is a monster. This isn't about black and white. This is about an evil dictator that is prepared to sacrifice his citizens, whatever their colour, in order to cling to power. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2163328.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2159418.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2157949.stm

Exactly. However, I have the sneaking suspicion that most people here and in the media are only giving this as much attention as they are because Mugabe's dared to drive white farmers out...

Land reform/redistribution in Zimbabwe is perfectly justifiable. It's unfortunate that it's being run as a ****ing joke, and will end up with thousands starving...

	09-08-2002 08:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Exactly. However, I have the sneaking suspicion that most people here and in the media are only giving this as much attention as they are because Mugabe's dared to drive white farmers out...

In most of the media reports of the violence that I have seen, the white farmers who get attacked are named in the articles while the names of the black farmers are not mentioned. In other words, the white farmers are given a human face while the black farmers are just part of a nameless horde.

There's also the question of whether the whites should be described as farmers. The term "farmer" invokes the image of people working the land. The whites in Zimbabwe are more like landowners or plantation owners. On average, they employ 70 people.

	09-08-2002 09:00									#46
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Sometimes I think that Africa would be better off back under colonial rule...

I agree with you 100% Dave. I said this last semester in one of my international relations classes and nearly gave everyone else in the rooms heart attacks. My professor told me that I probably shouldn't say that outside of the classroom. Oops

	09-08-2002 09:07									#47
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In certain circumstances, including Zimbabwe, expropriating the expropiators is perfectly justifiable, and in fact would be very helpful, provided it's done competently.

However, Mugabe is a statist thug. Aside from all of the crushing of dissent, getting involved in constant wars, and so forth, his land reform policies are totally insane - for instance, making it a crime to farm land or feed animals, or his half-assed redistribution agenda.

quote: Good point - and if you can find any living people who were robbed of their land, I'm all for restitution. But the fact is that it happened far enough ago that no one on either side is alive. The current blacks have lost nothing, and the current whites have taken nothing.

Why should property rights be protected to so limited a degree? Seems awfully unlibertarian.

If all property claims should expire after a person dies, was it wrong for the property of the Habsburgs, Hohenzollerns, Bourbons, Windsors, et al. to be expropriated?

	09-08-2002 09:09									#48
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where's Mr. Fun. I'm sure he's got an explanation how this is O.K.

I don't really give a sh!t. Whites took their land anyways. It's not really theirs. Whites should get the f*** out. But it still is messed up they are being forced out. But they should voluntarily give up their land. It's not rightfully theirs.

	09-08-2002 11:41									#49
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Snow,

The difference is the Palestianians did not forcefully take the land from the Israelis. They were carted off by the Assyrians and Romans.

	09-08-2002 13:17									#50
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Quick! Somebody ship some bio/chem/nuke weapons to Mugabe! That'll put him on the international radar screen!

**sad sigh**

Gatekeeper

	09-08-2002 13:39									#51
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EIF correctly points out that at it's core this issue is not a racial issue. It is a power issue and to a much smaller extent an ethnic issue. Mugabe is doing what Milosevic did in Yugoslavia, increasing his own power by race-baiting. In his case he needn't fear the tiny group who he is disenfranchising either. They are far too few to put up a fight. Meanwhile he is able to loot their property in order to keep his own thugs satisfied for the moment.

In terms of suffering the true losers are the blacks who are not part of Mugabe's ruling party. This includes but is not limited to the farm workers who have suffered greatly during the violent run up to the land seizures. Everyone in Zimbabwe will suffer eventually, but in the short run you can bet that those who are in the opposition will be the first to starve, along with those unfortunates in neighboring countries who depend on Zimbabwe's historic surlplus of grains to survive.

Mugabe is a murderous scumbag with nothing positive to offer the world, and should be selected for termination at the earliest possible moment.

	09-08-2002 13:50									#52
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Absolutely, Sikander, absolutely...

	09-08-2002 13:58									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Private property that was taken by force from the original people. All that land is stolen property to begin with. None of the whites there have a legitimate claim to the land. Their ancestors didn't buy the land, they conquered the savages and then prevented them by law from owning any land. If you are in possession of stolen property, you don't have any rights to it. And unlike the American Indians, the local Africans did believe they owned the land.

Sure it was taken but 120 years ago. How far back do you want to go? BTW Che, I know your a big supporter of the Palestinians so what would you say if the Jews said they were only reclaiming stolen property by resettling in Isreal. Is there a double standard in your logic or do we both agree there should be a time limit on digging up old grievences?

Five to six generations of ownership is far to long to start whining about things being stolen.

	09-08-2002 14:24									#54
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I have answered your question in a prior post.

	09-08-2002 14:47									#55
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quote: Private property that was taken by force from the original people. All that land is stolen property to begin with. None of the whites there have a legitimate claim to the land. Their ancestors didn't buy the land, they conquered the savages and then prevented them by law from owning any land. If you are in possession of stolen property, you don't have any rights to it. And unlike the American Indians, the local Africans did believe they owned the land.

So I take it you'll be giving your home up to the local Indian Tribal representative then Che?

As EiF says (Sikander) too. This is all about an ageing old man desperately clinging onto power any way he can. He is 78, something has snapped in his mind - the guy is not acting rationally in any way as it is obvious that he would rather destroy his country than lose power...

When he first took over in '78 he was hailed as a great leader and for the most part IIRC things were good in Zimbabwe for the better part of two decades.

Mugabe has had 24 years to sort this out, he was offered assistance by the UK years ago to sort it out - but he hasn't until now when his democratic grip on power has been crumbling!

Anyone else noticed his Hitleresque pencil mustache?

	09-08-2002 14:51									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Five to six generations of ownership is far to long to start whining about things being stolen.

But it hasn't been five or six generations. Africans have been fighting for their land for more than 100 years.

If someone steals your land and then holds the land with military force for 100 years, does that really give them any legal or moral right to claim the land?

Or take the case of natives in British Columbia. The whites came along and took their land by force. For almost 100 years, the natives have been trying to get compensation for their lost land. They were ignored for decades and the BC government continues to throw roadblocks into the negotiations. And then people start saying its too late to whine about compensation.

	09-08-2002 14:54									#57
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quote: Sometimes I think that Africa would be better off back under colonial rule...

quote: an argument could be made that the blacks were better - ie safer - under white rule because of a much lower crime rate.

How it comes that I'm so often feeling I need to puke after reading David Floyd ?

	09-08-2002 15:01									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS As EiF says (Sikander) too. This is all about an ageing old man desperately clinging onto power any way he can. He is 78, something has snapped in his mind - the guy is not acting rationally in any way as it is obvious that he would rather destroy his country than lose power...

I think there are two separate issues. One is what is the motive behind this land redistribution and the second one is whether this is legitimate.

Maybe he's doing it to cling on power, but this has nothing to do with whether the move is legit.

	09-08-2002 15:07									#59
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Being written in the mid 1980's the book is some what dated now, however, if someone would like to read a well written and interesting history of sub-sahara Africa the I suggest The Africans by David Lamb. Lamb was the African bureu chief for the Los Angles Times and he lived in more then a dozen African countries over a twenty year period so he has extensive first hand experience.
The book does a great job in explaining how Africa got to be the way it is and breaks things down in an easy to read and understandable mannor.

	09-08-2002 15:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I have answered your question in a prior post.

The action I was refering to is how the Romans took the land from the Jews and the Arabs took the land from the Romans. So it is still stolen land but one must look back further.
I contend if it happened more then a hundred years ago then "returning" the land to its previous owners is just as fraudulent as the original comfiscation.