 |
|
Franses
|
|
The time at the end of the page is standard for everyone, I guess. It is GMT+1.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
GhengisFarb
|
 |
I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:21
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Captain
Genghis, on my computer, it shows that your last post was 22-08-2002 13:18. Remember you've got time settings for your time zone. If you go to your Apoly control panel, you can see this. Mine is differnt from yours because I am in EST (-5GMT).
|
I'm talking about the time at the top of the post cause it's not set to my timezone. and it's been the same when I've been in other hemispheres.
According to the time at the top of this post, I posted at 8:09 pm but it's actually 2:20 pm where I'm at. Of course we could simply make the close EXACTLY 24 hours from when the opening post was made. Then anyone could figure it out on there own time set.
Jobs and salaries ideas:
Market assesor opens market and posts demand/supply conditions.
Salary=?
Banker at close of market goes through entire thread, computes all transactions and post succesful/unsuccessful list at close of market.
Salary=?
Government Agent determines start values of property and conducts property auctions, CANNOT bid in auction, but recieves 10% of proceeds (Captain's payment for the first auction would have been $1390).
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 23-08-2002 at 00:19
|
|
| |
|
|
|
sc369
|
|
Milton Keynes, England
Aug 2002
time: 05:21
|
|
If the Government agent receives 10% of proceeds, he will have a vested interest in valuing lands more highly. I think that's a rather serious conflict of interest, if he's going to be the only one valuing land.
It would be better if the base value of land was set much lower, with fewer limits on the number of tiles that could be bought, thus making for more real competition in land purchases.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Captain
|
 |
by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:21
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by sc369
If the Government agent receives 10% of proceeds, he will have a vested interest in valuing lands more highly. I think that's a rather serious conflict of interest, if he's going to be the only one valuing land.
It would be better if the base value of land was set much lower, with fewer limits on the number of tiles that could be bought, thus making for more real competition in land purchases. |
you're right. well, next auction that is something to consider. I believe the next one will be after the grace period is up? on the 16th turn.
anyone with no outstanding debt can bid again (which is likely every active player).
but, I'm no longer Government Land Agent. the new one will have to decide that. sc369, you want to be the Land Agent? It's a bit of work, but if you get compensation, it could be worthwhile. the Land Agent can do more land deals but doesn't have to until another 16 turns. but if you're the one in charge, you can do whatever you like - except obviously not purposely screwing over the government (that's why I would prefer compensation to be tied somehow to how well the agent serves government interests.)
Genghis, you're the Banker, right?
If sc369 doesn't volunteer, we still need a new Market Assessor starting turn #3.
anyone? anyone at all?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Franses
|
|
Captain,
I am willing to take over your role as Market Assessor for the time you are gone. When will you be back? Missed that part.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
sc369
|
|
Milton Keynes, England
Aug 2002
time: 05:21
|
|
I'm willing to be the Land Agent. I'm actually on holiday for a week starting next Saturday, but as I understand it the Land Agent doesn't HAVE to do anything until the next auction.
If I were to be appointed Land Agent, I would want to make some changes to the way state land is handled. The problem with the game at the moment is that it is too easy too make money. Success is almost guaranteed. You'll all be out of debt in 7 or 8 turns at the most, and then you'll be just making money. Even if you were paying interest, on an unimproved jungle tile, interest would only be $20, and you're making $50 plus for your food.
I thus have the following three proposals. Firstly, the state takes an active role in the market. The state owns all land that no-one else owns, and may use or sell all the resources produced by such land. However, the state will act not in its economic interest necessarially, but in the wider interest of Mini-Game citizens (determined by the Land Agent.) So, for example, if labour costs are likely to be too low (i.e. there is high unemployment), the state may hire labour. If prices are too low, the state will buy - if they are too high, the state will sell. Of course, you can't give the State economic carte blanche - apart from anything else, it's grossly unfair. The State will therefore have to pay its way like anyone else, and this brings us to the second proposal.
Taxes! Yes, you all know the 'death and taxes' quote - you didn't really think you were going to escape them, did you? Taxes are self assessed at 10% of your valuation of your own land, payable per economic turn. (this form of taxation based on land self-valuation does have historic precedent, being the primary form of taxation for most of the medieval and renaissance periods in England.) However, there is a catch. The State reserves the right to buy back your land from you at 50% greater than your own valuation - so beware lying on your tax forms! If you value your land too high, however, you will find it difficult to break even.
The third proposal, however, is the most important, and I think potentially the most interesting. Economic cycles are introduced.
In RECESSION, Interest rates are low, Labour costs are low, Production demand is reduced and commerce demand is reduced. In a NORMAL economy, prices and costs are calculated as per the normal formula. During a BOOM, Interest rates are high, Labour costs are high, and demand for commerce and production are increased. (Say demand is halved in recession and doubled in boom. Labour costs are likewise doubled and halved, while interest rates are 5%, 10% and 15%).
This will make money management very much more interesting. To make lots of cash, you want to buy up cheap resources and stockpile them in recession, and then sell them in boom times. However, if it's buildings you want, you should expand in recession - interest rates are low and labour is cheap.
The current state of the economy will be determined by the Land Agent and the Market Assessor in combination, based on how they think the economy is doing and the state of investment in the market. (If the Mini Game expands, the Minister for the Economy may want to get involved later.) Note that the State wants to avoid recession, and stay in the boom; also, the State will not be hoarding nor speculating. Barons, on the other hand, do not have to be so moral.......
Let me know what everyone thinks about these proposals. They may look complex - but most of the work will be done by the Market Assessor and the Land Agent, neither of whom will manage private estates while they have their term (I envisage both these posts being elective offices eventually.) - and they will make the game more fun, I promise!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
sc369
|
|
Milton Keynes, England
Aug 2002
time: 05:21
|
|
For extra spice, introduce NATURAL DISASTERS, at random intervals determined by the market assessor. Disasters may also last more than one turn.
If DROUGHT occurs, all non-irrigated land produces no food, except for land next to rivers, which produces one food. Irrigated land produces as normal. (Yes, people, get on the line to your Public Works Minister now. Maybe a few 'facilitating payments' might help!) Note that this will drastically raise the price of food - so if you've stockpiled it, lots of money. The State will try and avoid starvation, so the Land Agent may try and stockpile food against famine - if he has the resources.
An invasion of TERMITES will mean that no forest squares produce shields.
An EPIDEMIC causes the availability of labour to be halved. (The likelihood of an epidemid is affected by the current disease rating of Apolytonia. Maybe a Doctor's Surgery could be an additional building.)
If there are RIOTS in the 'real' game, then any buildings may be randomly destroyed. (selected by the MA)
FLOODS may occur by the coast or along a river, stopping all production in all squares along that coast or river for one turn. If the city itself is coastal or by a river, buildings may be destroyed.
Any other ideas?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Captain
|
|
by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:21
|
|
Franses yes. Go ahead. All yours. Back on Mon-Tues, but after that, no idea when I'll be back.
sc369, the Market Assessor has formulas to follow (that can be easily checked in 10 minutes by any citizen who is suspicious) while the gov't agent doesn't, so the Agent should be more accountable than the Assessor. The Agent should be elected, but for the beat, I'm not sure we have enough participants to warrant cluttering the forum (non-players might get mad at us - even though it is just an extension of the game and as valid as any other thread), and I'm hoping more will join us, rather than hate us. 
You're right. the Government should have its own accounts. But I don't think it should produce anything. It should not interfere. If it wants to raise money, it can do so by selling land (probably at ever-increasing prices based on availability, and expanding the Economic zone to include more cities) and by taxes.
Originally, the Government Agent also paid out salaries (for public services rendered, like the Assessor, Banker, Ministers, Judges, etc...). This was an incentive to promote people's involvement in the Civ 3 Demo game. I'm not sure how well it works since there are fewer mini-game players than civ 3 gamers.
But if you want to go the route of taxes, you should pay our ministers (which may attract more players to this mini-game). You can also pay others for public services, like the Gazette. The government should pay for all services in the public good, that is, if someone is making $$ already - say by fee or commission - the government doens't need to pay that, just those who would otherwise be working for free.
The Government's role is to act in the interest of all players, not only mini-game players. They may have to tax to finance such efforts, of course. And the Agent is also deserving of compensation. 
The land values I used at the start were made up, no formula. Just ballparked values based on guessed production and revenues from land. Then made it low enough to pay off in less than 10 turns. But I know some people will miss turns, so I made it 15 turns grace period. In that case, I didn't do very well for the Government since I gave land away so cheap!
As for cycles of boom and bust, no gov't interference. That depends on the free market. Btw, Termina is about to build a settler, so demand is going to go down after Sunday (next turnchat). The recent increase in pop is growth that will last a while, but I foresee a small recession after Sunday. I think it's already accounted for.
Well, that's it. See you after Sunday.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
sc369
|
|
Milton Keynes, England
Aug 2002
time: 05:21
|
|
Would people prefer to have a brewery converting food to commerce, or to have it turning food into a new commodity, beer?
The advanatage of having a seperate beer commodity is that prices will be higher. Note that production of all three resources can only increase (and probably faster than demand), so prices will fall. If food only converts to commerce, this will raise the price of food, and lower commerce - which means that beer is not very good for Republics and Democracies. A seperate beer commodity, however, will mean that the price is affected only by the number of breweries in relation to the population.
EDIT: Sorry, Ghengisfarb, missed your 'distillery' idea. I see that it's probably a good idea to defer new commodities until later. Do you think that the cost will be economic, though? The difference between food and commerce prices is not that astronomical - and the building costs 15 shields.
Last edited by sc369 on 23-08-2002 at 11:04
|
|
| |
|
|
|
GhengisFarb
|
|
I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:21
|
|
NOTE: THERE IS STILL OPEN LAND AVAILABLE FOR ANYONE INTERESTED IN JOINING THE $MIN-GAME NOW
quote:
Originally posted by sc369 EDIT: Sorry, Ghengisfarb, missed your 'distillery' idea. I see that it's probably a good idea to defer new commodities until later. Do you think that the cost will be economic, though? The difference between food and commerce prices is not that astronomical - and the building costs 15 shields. |
I'm not sure, but it would add versitility to be able to alter your resources, for a cost. I think as our cities get better and we aquire more cities corruption will be worse. One we upgrade from Despotism the economy will be larger. We're also operating in the market with the least demand, the orther markets being farther from the capital will have greater corruption/market demand versus supply.
I would prefer to hold back new elements until players have gotten comfortable with existing ones. The buildings were part of the original plan, and without them labor doesn't serve a purpose- we just never ironed out the specifics.
quote:
Originally posted by Franses
Current rules:
The current rules are those defined by Captain in the first three posts of this thread but some rules where added or changed. Because they were added/changed without much debate I regard them valid (unless the nobles decide differently of course). These changes are:
1. The grace period is no longer 10 but 15 turns.
2. Besides a government agent and market assessor, a banker position is defined. |
Yeah as we discussed ideas the positions changed, we finally settled on:
3. The government agent, market assessor and banker are elected.
Government Agent-Sets price values and operates Land Auctions, in MHO the easiest job. Everything the GA does is initially decided by the members, discussed and voted on, the hardest part will be the auctions. Should probably be voted on before each auction as the GA can't bid on land. We can actually run the trading session without a GA. That's pretty much the main job, originally the GA was doing everything but the tracking/financial duties went over to the Banker. Also supoosed to charge taxes but as many of the powers will have an extreme effect on the game, virtually every decision has to be approved by a 50%+ vote of the members. Definitely determined to be elected as they have the powers to change rules propose taxes.
Market AssesorNot that complicated, IMHO probably the 2nd easiest job. Market Assesor opens up the lastest saved game and counts supply/demand for the market. Then posts it in A NEW TRADE THREAD (I through that in as it's going to get hard to distiguish where the session starts in one long thread ), then when exactly 24 hours have passed should post a "Closed" post - not really necessary as the times are on the posts. We could use a moderator to actually CLOSE the thread so that no one could alter their posts, but for now we'll just operate on the honor system. I think any rule changes should be posted by the MA in the opening post of a trading session.
[b]Banker[b] IMHO, the hardest job because it requires the most work. At the close of the trading session the Banker goes through the ENTIRE thread and determines exactly how much of each commodity was offered, determines final demand/supply rates, which proposals were successful/not, who got what from which labor market, any bonus from buildings(none yet), current player stockpiles, current level of construction of buildings, payroll, and taxes.
Seems like a lot of power but it isn't. Everything is subject to review by any member and its all done according the the ratios set up in the $Mini-game thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Franses 4. It is possible to rent the estate of another noble
(IMO this is not a change since it may be regarded as a consequence of rule 4 from Captains post "You can trade with other players" but IMO it would be wise to define it explicitly) |
Captain posted a ruling that you could work out deals with other players if you wern't going to be able to run your estate for a while:
UnOrtOdox- forced to assume the Presidency until MWIA's computer is fixed, I get anything over $125 his estate makes.
civman2001-unable to check list regularly, I'm running his estate for 5 turns and get anything over $175 his estate makes.
Captain-out of the loop for a while-made me executor until he gets back (in regards to retroactive compensation for previous Auction/Trading session).
YOU DON"T HAVE TO POST THE SPECIFICS OF THE DEAL, I'm just posting the ones I have assumed so people don't get the impression I've set up some kind of over-empire here. After the base profits, I'm not making that much.
quote:
Originally posted by Franses 5. Changes to the rules may be proposed but either (a) should not be debated by anyone or (b) need a 51% majority using a poll.
6. Trade threads are not to be used for debate.
(with the exception of ensuring correct proposals from the nobles) |
The only rule changes I enacted without vote/in the middle of the thread were ones which I felt were obviously needed to keep the game flowing. The "sell at ending price" with the fee had been brought up 6 times and seemed a simple compromise. They were gaps in our game system we hadn't really thought about, like Captain's ruling on having other members administer your estate.
Definitely need to iron out buildings, but I plan on putting them to a vote once people have given me feedback on the list above.
Any lengthy discussions/proposals should be in this thread, putting them in a trade thread means after that session is done no one will look at them anymore. Also the Banker has to go through the ENTIRE thread to compute transactions. We went through 3 pages of posts with LESS transactions than the first page of the first trading session.
If we keep rules/proposal discussions here, and vote on them in polls, we can start each trading session with a list of current rules with the D:S rates. That we you won't have to keep searching through threads for current rules.
How about a new Organizational thread with a synopsis of the rules and transaction laws and a current list of landowners/members. It could be the Official Join Thread. This would be the discussion Thread and we would open a new thread for each series of trading sessions, say maybe 5 trading turns per session, kinda like a work week.
quote:
Originally posted by Franses Suggestion regarding the rules:
1. I strongly suggest that the government agent (currently GhengisFarb) defines a new thread that contains the current rules in the first post. If rules change he will update this first post (using a another colour for the change?). This way it is easy for every noble to check the latest rules while at the moment you have to scan a lengthy thread. |
quote:
Originally posted by Franses Proposed additions to the rules:
1. I suggest that there will be no more than 1 poll per turn unless absoluty necessary (the Government Agent decides).
Current polls:
There is currently one valid poll called "Mini-game compensation"
Current personnel:
Government Agent: GhengisFarb
Banker: GhengisFarb
Market Assessor: Franses
Elections for all of the three positions take place after the closure of turn 2 (meaning that Franses does not do anything until elected officially. Turn 3 of the mini-game will be postponed until the elections are finished.
Did I miss anything? Any comments? |
I agree, but feel we need two more polls for this turn. One for buildings, and one to legitimitize the current Officials.
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 24-08-2002 at 10:08
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Franses
|
|
OK, GF. I think we agree.
Regarding the buildings. I agree with the storage and conversion buildings but have some questions regarding the "Profit Bonus" buildings. The most important one is:
1. Selling food/shields/commerce) through "Profit Bonus" buildings does the food etc. count as supply?
If not then that's OK. This then provides an alternative to selling the food on the market. If not, I agree with the building but I suggest that we then add a kind of building that enables the nobles to convert this worthless (I predict a price below 10$ in the next couple of turns) into something usefull. I once suggested a brewery for this purpose but this has become a conversion building with a totally different profile.
2. What is the price that you refer to? How is it defined?
Further remarks depend on the answer on 1.
[QUOTE}
You have to choose the city you build these in, if that city is ever captured its assumed your businesses in the city are lost. Labor has to be hired from the city you're building/operating in.
[/QUOTE]
A nice feature but awfull to keep track off. I suggest not to start with it and first see how things go.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
GhengisFarb
|
|
I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:21
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Franses
OK, GF. I think we agree.
Regarding the buildings. I agree with the storage and conversion buildings but have some questions regarding the "Profit Bonus" buildings. The most important one is:
1. Selling food/shields/commerce) through "Profit Bonus" buildings does the food etc. count as supply?
If not then that's OK. This then provides an alternative to selling the food on the market. If not, I agree with the building but I suggest that we then add a kind of building that enables the nobles to convert this worthless (I predict a price below 10$ in the next couple of turns) into something usefull. I once suggested a brewery for this purpose but this has become a conversion building with a totally different profile.
2. What is the price that you refer to? How is it defined?
Further remarks depend on the answer on 1. |
Yes it counts as supply and works as Captain originally explained if you sold 2 food at $40, then the final price would end up being $40 + 50%($20) for a total of $60.
I don't think its possible for prices to get that low as there is a cutoff once demand is met unless there is a price war which could be averted by cartels.
quote:
Originally posted by Franses quote:
You have to choose the city you build these in, if that city is ever captured its assumed your businesses in the city are lost. Labor has to be hired from the city you're building/operating in.
|
A nice feature but awfull to keep track off. I suggest not to start with it and first see how things go. |
Actually it's notmuch more work than I'm already doing. I'll simply post a construction analysis at the end of the Closing Market Transaction report.
ALSO (NEW BUSINESS):
How about a 10% Business Tax on all revenue generated by Nobles. The 16 turn Grace period is a Grace Period for interest AND Business Tax, meaning at the end of the period you have to pay interest on all unpaid debt and the 10% tax.
I feel we should make the 16 turn Grace Period a rule and let it apply to all new players, that is later players get the 3 tile/$1000 loan rule and 16 turn Grace Period from Interest and Business Tax. This could be considered a Government incentive to establish healthy profitable business from which it can generate a healthy income later.
ANYONE WANTED TO RUN FOR THE OFFICES OF GOVERNMENT AGENT, MARKET ASSESOR, OR BANKER NEEDS TO PM WITH THEIR INTENT WITHIN THE NEXT 6 HOURS. At that time I will post elections.
CURRENT CANDIDATES
Government Agent
sc369
Market Assesor
Franses
Banker
GhengisFarb
Eye candy:
 Attachment: market1.gif
This has been downloaded 759 time(s).
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 23-08-2002 at 20:14
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Franses
|
|
quote:
I don't think its possible for prices to get that low as there is a cutoff once demand is met unless there is a price war which could be averted by cartels. |
I think food prices will drop dramatically but lets stop this discussion for now and see what happens.
quote:
How about a 10% Business Tax on all revenue generated by Nobles. The 16 turn Grace period is a Grace Period for interest AND Business Tax, meaning at the end of the period you have to pay interest on all unpaid debt and the 10% tax. |
IMO 10% is quite high. I suggest 5% but lets decide later. Turn 10 or so. We also need to define the interest rate at some point in time. I suppose it is possible for nobles to lend eachother money so that could be a source of money for the nobles to.
quote:
I feel we should make the 16 turn Grace Period a rule and let it apply to all new players, that is later players get the 3 tile/$1000 loan rule and 16 turn Grace Period from Interest and Business Tax. This could be considered a Government incentive to establish healthy profitable business from which it can generate a healthy income later. |
I fully agree. Seems fair to the new players.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
GhengisFarb
|
|
I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:21
|
|
CURRENT PROPOSAL:
Will post election thread tonight for $Mini-game positions to last 24 hours.
Want to run one turn tomorrow night before Termina builds a settler and shrinks the market.
Why? Because the pop will drop after Termina builds its settler and this will give us a chance to generate some income and get rid of stockpiles before that happens.
How long should terms last?
Should we say 1 term is 5 trading sessions, at which point they have to run for re-election?
Is there a 3 term limit as in the Constitution of the Democracy Game?
I think salary should be set for a term, for example Banker gets $200 for a term of 5 sessions. But that makes the Government Agent getting around $1400 for running an auction and the Market Assessor and Banker getting $200 each for doing a heck of lot more work.
(Going off of options winning in Compensation Poll)
AUCTION LAND VALUATION PROPOSAL
$200 for each Food or Commerce produced.
$250 for each shield produced.
$50, $100, $200, $300, and $400 for each additonal commodity over the first one.
For Example:
A tile producing 2 food, 1 shield, and 1 commerce would be valued:
$600 ($200x3 (2 food, 1 commerce))
$250 ($250x1 (1 shield))
$50 for 2nd commodity
$100 for 3rd commodity
$200 for 4th commodity
= Total Value of $1200
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 23-08-2002 at 23:48
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kloreep
|
 |
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:21
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
CURRENT PROPOSAL:
Will post election thread tonight for $Mini-game positions to last 24 hours. |
How about 48 hours? I know that's slow for the mini-game, but I don't think 24 hours will catch all the players.
quote:
Want to run one turn tomorrow night before Termina builds a settler and shrinks the market. |
No objection from me.
quote:
How long should terms last?
Should we say 1 term is 5 trading sessions, at which point they have to run for re-election?
Is there a 3 term limit as in the Constitution of the Democracy Game?
I think salary should be set for a term, for example Banker gets $200 for a term of 5 sessions. But that makes the Government Agent getting around $1400 for running an auction and the Market Assessor and Banker getting $200 each for doing a heck of lot more work.
(Going off of options winning in Compensation Poll) |
5 trading sessions a term sounds good, though I imagine there will be a lot of re-electing. On that topic, I don't think the 3 term limit applies, since the mini-game isn't an official part of the demogame (and neither are its officials).
As for the Gov. Agent's salary, why not make it whatever percentage of the most profitable (for the government) auction they ran during their term?
quote:
AUCTION LAND VALUATION PROPOSAL
$200 for each Food or Commerce produced.
$250 for each shield produced.
$50, $100, $200, $300, and $400 for each additonal commodity over the first one.
For Example:
A tile producing 2 food, 1 shield, and 1 commerce would be valued:
$600 ($200x3 (2 food, 1 commerce))
$250 ($250x1 (1 shield))
$50 for 2nd commodity
$100 for 3rd commodity
$200 for 4th commodity
= Total Value of $1200 |
I like the general idea, but I don't think there should be such a heavy penalty for having a few good tiles rather than a bunch of mediocre ones. Maybe it should stop at 150 for the fourth commodity, and 150 for all commodities after that.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:21.
Apolyton Time is 00:21. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
22-08-2002 19:45
Attachment: 
"allow myself to introduce ... myself...)
|
