20-08-2002 08:20									#91
	Inflate your Upload Space

Those jungle tiles are just being bought up! I guess there are those who are into the long term investment stuff . This will add an interesting side to the game, as those people try to lobby the public works minister to order the developement of their tile in order to hasten their return on their investment....heh...interesting Real Life sim...

	20-08-2002 08:23									#92
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Let's try this again

009: $350
012: $250
Total: 600



BOTH tiles

	20-08-2002 08:32									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Those jungle tiles are just being bought up! I guess there are those who are into the long term investment stuff . This will add an interesting side to the game, as those people try to lobby the public works minister to order the developement of their tile in order to hasten their return on their investment....heh...interesting Real Life sim...

that's the idea!
but it's more likely they'll try to seek out good land ops elsewhere rather than fruitlessly lobby the PW minister (who will likely have his own "bigger picture" plans).

i wonder if even the beta testers will become similar to the "old money" club in the full game. I can just see it now.. Kman resents new upstart millionaire Bubba... just because Bubba can buy Kman's estate ten times over doesn't mean Kman's going to let him join the country club...

	20-08-2002 09:11									#94
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I'm not sure as I'm not completely clear on what formula the Market Assesor is supposed to use...... Should the Market Assessor be allowed to participate in the game since they are the one setting the prices?

Yes. Because there is little to no chance of the Assessor being corrupt. Each Assessment is subject to audit by any citizen who can point out errors and wants to bother double-checking. An Assessors who keeps making errors isn't likely to get compensated as well as one who does it right.

The Assessor does the following:

1) Takes the most recent save and looks at it.

2a) Determines Base Food Demand (# heads in region * 2)

2b) Determines Base Food Supply (Sum of food from tiles worked.)

3a) Determines Base Shield Demand (Shield Demand: # shields produced in all cities in region minus waste).

3b) Determines Base Shield Supply (Sum of shields from worked tiles)

4a) Determines Base Commerce Demand (Sum of commerce in all cities in region minus corruption)

4b) Commerce Supply (Sum of all commerce in region)


5) Write down the basic Demand:Supply ratio for each commodity. D:S.

6) Counts heads of pop to determine total available labour.


*Notice that for shields and commerce, the difference between Demand and Supply is equal to the amount of waste and corruption. Therefore, more "waste" and "corruption", the lower your profits (since demand goes down). In this Beta, we treat waste as a blackmarket where consumers buying cheap illegal goods reduces their demand for your legitimate products.


Remember, Commodity prices depend on the base rate, and Supply & Demand. The default market Prices are increased or decreased by the ratio of Demand:Supply. The base rate for each commodity, including labour is $100.


That's the END of the Market Assessor's job. What happens next is too much for him to track. Each trader tracks from there in succession. It's easier to understand if I give an example.


EXAMPLE TRADES THREAD
---
As people put their offers on the market, they increase D or S.
Example: Assuming Food D:S = 17/20= $85, Shield D:S=9/10 = $90, Commerce D:S =10/11=$92. A sample offer should have a form similar to this:

quote: Lord Aggie Sale 2 Food @ $77, 1 Commerce @$83 Buy 3 Shields @$120 each Food D:S=17/22=$77 Shield D:S = 12/10 =$120 Commerce D:S = 10/12 =$83

And the next person to post an offer would do this:

quote: Duke Epistax Sale 1 Food @ $74, 1 Commerce @$77 Buy 2 Shield @$140 each Food D:S=17/23 = $74 Shield D:S = 14/10 = $140 Commerce D:S =10/13 = $77

As more people put their offers out there and adjust them to each other, the prices will fluctuate until the time is up. do not edit your posts, Just post new ones, revising your old offers. This will make sure the most recent post has the current D:S.

Seeing as how the first poster would lose out (he has the highest sale prices, even above default, that means he won't be able to sell them), he'll need to repost his offer. Since he anticipates his rivals will try to undercut him, he puts his offers where he thinks they won't bother undercutting. In this case, since no one else is buying shields, and there is enough shields for both of them to buy, he doesn't need to go above default price.

quote: Lord Aggie Sale 2 Food @ $65, 1 Commerce @$70 Buy 3 Shields @$140 each Food D:S=17/23 = $74 Shield D:S = 14/10 = $140 Commerce D:S =10/13 = $77

Followed by Epi's response. Note he doesn't bother with the commerce side. He doesn't want to sell at too low a price. He figures if it doesn't sell, it'll stockpile. Maybe in the future it'll be worth more. Otoh, food spoils. Better sell it for anything.

quote: Duke Epistax Sale 1 Food @ $60, 1 Commerce @$77 Buy 2 Shield @$140 each Food D:S=17/23 = $74 Shield D:S = 14/10 = $140 Commerce D:S =10/13 = $77

Ideally, everyone would post once their initial offers, and then everyone would post a second time to revise their prices. In actuality, it'll be more chaotic and more "market" like. Sure Epi could have tried to sell food at $64, just a dollar lower than Aggie, but that's a waste of time. Aggie might just post a dollar lower and epi would have to respond. Instead Epi just goes as low as he is willing and bets that Aggie won't go lower. (at the start of this game, no one can stockpile food so i foresee very low food prices!).

Makes sense? I'm not 100% sure about how well this will work, but we'll find out. I'm not confident my assumptions as to what will happen are true, that's why we're having this beta. Please don't get discouraged if I mess things up!

Feel free to point out flaws and suggest changes. .I just want it to work well and be fun.

	20-08-2002 09:13									#95
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oh yeah, I know I'm the government, so I probably shouldn't bid now. But if it's not too much of a conflict of interest, I'll bid $1500 for BHQ W.

	20-08-2002 09:21									#96
	Tired of ads?

One more thing...

I just realized, we could use a BANKER.
At the end of the turn, the banker goes through the trade thread and figures out which deals went through. Obviously, a tough job, so I foresee the Banker (and his helpers) making a HUGE profit in commissions.

	20-08-2002 09:25									#97
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Captain :
As you can imagine, I agree with the banker idea

Ghengis :
I withdraw my bid on tile #4, and I put a £1200 bid on tile #3b (roaded Forest W of 'Poly)

	20-08-2002 09:27									#98
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quote: £1200 bid

That little thingy, dollar sign... its all good

	20-08-2002 09:31									#99
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

10) Revised Basic Buildings List:

because of questions and suggestions received

Silo (10 shields): Allows stockpiling up to 20 food.
Warehouse (10 shields): Allows stockpiling 20 items total of either shields or commerce.
Inn (40 shields): Converts 1 food and 1 merchandise into cash for 150% of the market price per turn*.
Shop (50 shields): Allows you to sell up to 3 commerce per turn for 20% more*.
Workshop (50 shields): Allows you to hire up to 3 labourers per turn for 20% less than the current rate*.
Bank (100 shields): Allows the owner to LEND and store CASH, in addition to the regular commissions earned as described in post above.
House: Houses are built in increments of 10 shields per level of splendour. Increases Property Value of tiles. Can be mortgaged for cash if a banker is willing.


*Means you post prices and offers in accordance with the rates, but if your deal goes through, at that time, you add your bonuses.

	20-08-2002 09:48									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I bid $1400 on 006 Apolyton NW11.

	20-08-2002 10:30									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman That little thingy, dollar sign... its all good

I prefer £. ou know... It looks like an "L", like "Lyton". And I bet it's on your keyboard as well.

	20-08-2002 11:13									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Captain,

I am sorry that you want to beta test an idea of the market which is wrong in all respects. But as one says in those cases, it just a game ! :

	20-08-2002 11:54									#103
	Tired of ads?

OK, Kloreep. I give up.

I bid $1100 on 002 Apolyton NE

	20-08-2002 17:38									#104
	Remove this text

Here are the current lands on AUCTION and the minimum/current bids:

NOTE: I renamed the 3's: 3a and 3b.
Currently winning bidder in bold green.

001 Apolyton N (horse, grass, rd), $1000
....$1000...NYE
002 Apolyton NE (mined grass rd), $1000
....$1100...Franses
....$1000...MrWIA
003a Apolyton SW (forest, rd), $1200
....$1200...Jonny
003b Apolyton W (forest, rd), $1200
....$1200...Spiffor
004 Apolyton NW (grass), $500
....$525...GhengisFarb
005 Apolyton NW10 (mined forest rd), $1200

006 Apolyton NW11 (mined grass rd), $1000
....$1400...Kloreep
....$1320...Darth Viper

007 Apolyton NW12 (mined grass rd), $1000

008 Apolyton NE1 (mined grass rd), $1000
....$1000...civman2000
009 Termina N (jungle), $200
....$500...Epistax
....$450...GhengisFarb
010 Termina NE (mined grass rd), $1000
011 Termina E (mined grass rd), $1000
....$1020...Rendelnep
012 Termina NW (jungle), $200
....$250...Epistax
013 Termina NE1 (jungle), $200
....$250...UnOrthOdOx
014 Termina NE2 (jungle), $200
....$200...UnOrthOdOx
015 Termina NE3 (jungle), $200

016 Tassagrad N (mined grass rd), $1000

017 Tassagrad NE (jungle), $200

018 Tassagrad SE (jungle), $200
....$200...Sheik
019 Tassagrad S (grass rd, mine?), $1000

020 Tassagrad SW (mined grass rd), $1000

021 Tassagrad W (jungle), $200
....$200...Shiek
022 Tassagrad NW (jungle), $200

023 Tassagrad NW10 (jungle), $200
....$250...jdd2007
024 Tassagrad NW11 (jungle), $200
....$250...jdd2007
025 Tassagrad NW12 (jungle), $200
....$250...jdd2007
026 BHQ N (mountain), $200
....$225...GhengisFarb
027 BHQ NE (jungle), $200
....$225...GhengisFarb
028 BHQ S (jungle), $200

029 BHQ SW (mined grass rd river), $1500
....$1500...Kman
030 BHQ W (mined grass rd river), $1500
....$1500...Captain
031 BHQ NW (mined grass river), $1500

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 21-08-2002 at 00:39

	20-08-2002 17:45									#105
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Captain One more thing... I just realized, we could use a BANKER. At the end of the turn, the banker goes through the trade thread and figures out which deals went through. Obviously, a tough job, so I foresee the Banker (and his helpers) making a HUGE profit in commissions.

This would be a better job for me, as I might not have access to Civ3 for 4-5 weeks but would still be able to access the forums. If there are no takers , we could work the Market Accessor together for awhile.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I prefer £. ou know... It looks like an "L", like "Lyton". And I bet it's on your keyboard as well.

I don't live in Europe, so I don't have the "squiggly L".

	20-08-2002 18:03									#106
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

[quote]I don't live in Europe, so I don't have the "squiggly L".[quote]
Oh ok sorry. I thought everyone had the pound symbol, esp. QWERTY users (since it's the English keyboard). I'll use $ from now then.

	20-08-2002 18:29									#107
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

For the 4th time (or so)

009: $350 three hundred and fifty
012: $250 two hundred and fifty

* I don't find it annoying, but rather funny.


Edit: Captain your mail box is FULL!

	20-08-2002 19:27									#108
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: I don't live in Europe, so I don't have the "squiggly L". Oh ok sorry. I thought everyone had the pound symbol, esp. QWERTY users (since it's the English keyboard). I'll use $ from now then.

Yeah, I used to have a Korean computer and it had Yen and Pound on it, but I think the currency symbols are region specific. (Except the dollar for some reason)

Epistax- Is it right now?

	20-08-2002 19:35									#109
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have all english (United States) symbols on my computer but can enter the foreign ones as well it just takes awhile. The dollar is probably on all computers because it is used in a few different places and for business. What symbol do they use in Australia?

	20-08-2002 20:30									#110
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Captain, I am sorry that you want to beta test an idea of the market which is wrong in all respects. But as one says in those cases, it just a game ! :

Could you please elaborate?

Changed by bid to:
$550 for 4 and
$450 for 9

	20-08-2002 20:59									#111
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: 10) Revised Basic Buildings List: because of questions and suggestions received Silo (10 shields): Allows stockpiling up to 20 food. Warehouse (10 shields): Allows stockpiling 20 items total of either shields or commerce. Inn (40 shields): Converts 1 food and 1 merchandise into cash for 150% of the market price per turn*. Shop (50 shields): Allows you to sell up to 3 commerce per turn for 20% more*. Workshop (50 shields): Allows you to hire up to 3 labourers per turn for 20% less than the current rate*. Bank (100 shields): Allows the owner to LEND and store CASH, in addition to the regular commissions earned as described in post above. House: Houses are built in increments of 10 shields per level of splendour. Increases Property Value of tiles. Can be mortgaged for cash if a banker is willing. *Means you post prices and offers in accordance with the rates, but if your deal goes through, at that time, you add your bonuses.

So basically:
Shields are Construction Supplies
Commerce are Trade Goods
Food is Food Stuffs
Labor is Construction Workers
Is this correct?

Observations:
We should be able to store cash by default.
I would like to see Resources as more profitable products (horses, iron, dye, etc.)
I would like there to be an "improvement" land owners can build on their property that increases it's production.

	21-08-2002 00:11									#112
	Remove this text

$500 for 009.

I should point out that I am bidding on two adjacent squares, so I am willing to buy them as a block. Say, $750-$850 for the pair. This would outbid others who bid less for a single.

EDIT:

In addition I am willing to sign a contract to pay no less than $300 each a piece for the two jungle tiles NW of 009 and 012, when they become available by culture.

	21-08-2002 00:23									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax $500 for 009. I should point out that I am bidding on two adjacent squares, so I am willing to buy them as a block. Say, $750-$850 for the pair. This would outbid others who bid less for a single.

All the auctions are for single pieces, and in normal auctions the single bidder would get preference since the single bids add up to more than the combined bid.

	21-08-2002 00:32									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ah but we want this to be a realistic economy situation, yes? The bank wants whoever will be taking the biggest loans, completely.

We need a banker who can't buy land while in office, or something like that, so that they can best convey the view of the bank.

In addition, land is often sold in bundles at lower prices. And as always, banks will sign many contracts in their favor to bend and break rules.



So who here is a greedy (bad word goes here) who could rep the bank?


EDIT: Examples of breaking rules

A bank would allow people to circumvent the bidding if they offer a lot, and would close as soon as a very high bid is made so it can't be retracted.

If someone was willing to say, pay interest upfront with no grace period, they would certainly get priority over other people that offered more.

If someone is willing to enter some other sort of contract, the bank always has ears open. For instance my contract to buy certain further lands.

Banks LOVE this stuff


EDIT: Captain, your box is still full. You are deleting from your sent folder too, correct?

Last edited by Epistax on 21-08-2002 at 00:54

	21-08-2002 00:34									#115
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here are the current lands on AUCTION and the minimum/current bids:

NOTE: I renamed the 3's: 3a and 3b.
Currently winning bidder in bold green.

001 Apolyton N (horse, grass, rd), $1000
....$1000...NYE
002 Apolyton NE (mined grass rd), $1000
....$1100...Franses
....$1000...MrWIA
003a Apolyton SW (forest, rd), $1200
....$1200...Jonny
003b Apolyton W (forest, rd), $1200
....$1200...Spiffor
004 Apolyton NW (grass), $500
....$525...GhengisFarb
005 Apolyton NW10 (mined forest rd), $1200

006 Apolyton NW11 (mined grass rd), $1000
....$1400...Kloreep
....$1320...Darth Viper

007 Apolyton NW12 (mined grass rd), $1000

008 Apolyton NE1 (mined grass rd), $1000
....$1000...civman2000
009 Termina N (jungle), $200
....$500...Epistax
....$450...GhengisFarb
010 Termina NE (mined grass rd), $1000
011 Termina E (mined grass rd), $1000
....$1020...Rendelnep
012 Termina NW (jungle), $200
....$250...Epistax
013 Termina NE1 (jungle), $200
....$250...UnOrthOdOx
014 Termina NE2 (jungle), $200
....$200...UnOrthOdOx
015 Termina NE3 (jungle), $200

016 Tassagrad N (mined grass rd), $1000

017 Tassagrad NE (jungle), $200

018 Tassagrad SE (jungle), $200
....$200...Sheik
019 Tassagrad S (grass rd, mine?), $1000

020 Tassagrad SW (mined grass rd), $1000

021 Tassagrad W (jungle), $200
....$200...Shiek
022 Tassagrad NW (jungle), $200

023 Tassagrad NW10 (jungle), $200
....$250...jdd2007
024 Tassagrad NW11 (jungle), $200
....$250...jdd2007
025 Tassagrad NW12 (jungle), $200
....$250...jdd2007
026 BHQ N (mountain), $200
....$225...GhengisFarb
027 BHQ NE (jungle), $200
....$225...GhengisFarb
028 BHQ S (jungle), $200

029 BHQ SW (mined grass rd river), $1500
....$1500...Kman
030 BHQ W (mined grass rd river), $1500
....$1500...Captain
031 BHQ NW (mined grass river), $1500

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 21-08-2002 at 00:39

	21-08-2002 00:42									#116
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Epistax We need a banker who can't buy land while in office, or something like that, so that they can best convey the view of the bank. In addition, land is often sold in bundles at lower prices. And as always, banks will sign many contracts in their favor to bend and break rules. So who here is a greedy (bad word goes here) who could rep the bank? EDIT: Examples of breaking rules A bank would allow people to circumvent the bidding if they offer a lot, and would close as soon as a very high bid is made so it can't be retracted. If someone was willing to say, pay interest upfront with no grace period, they would certainly get priority over other people that offered more. If someone is willing to enter some other sort of contract, the bank always has ears open. For instance my contract to buy certain further lands. Banks LOVE this stuff

That would just open too many posibilities of people abusing the game.

I bid $225 on 26 and 27.

	21-08-2002 01:26									#117
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when does the auction end?

	21-08-2002 01:35									#118
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I have seen somewhere that it would be open for three days and that was yesterday, if I recall well. That would mean another two days. Why not close it now and keep the open lots for those who want to join later?

	21-08-2002 02:34									#119
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb So basically: Shields are Construction Supplies Commerce are Trade Goods Food is Food Stuffs Labor is Construction Workers Is this correct?

yes. you got it.

quote: Observations: We should be able to store cash by default. I would like to see Resources as more profitable products (horses, iron, dye, etc.) I would like there to be an "improvement" land owners can build on their property that increases it's production.

yes, you can store cash by default.
yes, hopefully we can introduce resources later (but what do these resources do? Are they just a more valuable form of trade goods? What can we do with them?
for that matter, I think we need to make commerce/trade goods more valuable also...
right now, the only really useful thing is shields. food and commerce seem to be only useful for trading for cash, for shields to build things, to make more cash... a neverending upwards spiral. after a while, when you have millions of lytons lying around, you want to do something with them... but what?

suggestions anyone? what do we do with all the money we're going to accumulate, besides use it to make more money? is there any way to splurge? sponsor your own library wing perhaps?


as for improvements to land that increases production... that's what you're lobbying the PW minister is for.

	21-08-2002 02:43									#120
	Tired of ads?

Bankers are in it for themselves...

But bankers would start the same as everyone else, with no cash. They'd be eligible for loans from the government too, which they could then loan others at interest.

Right now, the only one with any money is the government - who owns everything by default, until it sells it off. The government agent doesn't get to keep the money for himself, he just carries out the government's business - namely paying our ministers and other staff their salaries (as a small reward and an incentive for more people to serve in office). He is also in charge of payroll for those who give services to the public, like the newspaper and others. Of course, since he himself is providing a service, he is also eligible for compensation (subject to taxpayer approval to avoid corruption).

Remember, aside from the Government Agent and the Market Assessor, players are generally in it for themselves.

After thinking a bit, I realize I'd be in a conflict of interest acting as a government agent for the auction and bidding in the same auction. So I withdraw my bid. Maybe in the future.