31-08-2002 12:27									#1
	The Empath Guild Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Welcome to The Empath Guild. This is a think-tank for foreign affairs policy. Feel free to join, and put your thoughts forward about where we should stand with the other factions.

By posting in the thread, you are considered a member. Anyone can join.

Of course, at the moment there isn't really much to discuss, but that'll change soon enough.

Members

1. Darkness' Edge
2. Maniac
3. AdamTG02
4. Diablero
5. Haon
6. Ade
7. The Bloody Baro

Last edited by Darkness' Edge on 01-09-2002 at 03:43

	31-08-2002 13:33									#2
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Count me in!

	31-08-2002 15:13									#3
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Now, excluding the Director of Foreign Affairs (who did sign up in the NGO-thread) from your list... and creating the thread by yourself...

Ok, I'll accept your apology (the one you were probably planning by now? )

Hope this will spring in life as soon as the game begins!

	31-08-2002 16:02									#4
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This will really depend on how quickly we get a military built up, but if we end up having bullies (Miriam, Yang) near us & they demand we give them 90% of out energy credits, will we follow a policy of appeasement or say "no" and hope they don't attack us?

	31-08-2002 17:02									#5
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Count me in.

	31-08-2002 21:59									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Gnool This will really depend on how quickly we get a military built up, but if we end up having bullies (Miriam, Yang) near us & they demand we give them 90% of out energy credits, will we follow a policy of appeasement or say "no" and hope they don't attack us?

As the Director of Foreign Affairs I do have to say that peace is my first goal; but in a situation like this we'll have to ponder our chances. Miriam and Yang are very likely to attack us sooner or later if they start near us - so we wouldn't want them to have the advantage of those energy credits off our stashes. So, if our army was strong enough (like I'm eventually trusting it to be), I wouldn't even think of paying.

	31-08-2002 22:15									#7
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My opinion:

Particularly on Thinker difficulty, we shouldn't have any problems getting into war. Wars will seek us out, based on ideological conflicts or other factions' power grabs. Thus, I'd favor signing a treaty with even the Hive, because even though we oppose their ideology, we can predict that their ditrust of us will make them attack first.

Waiting for our enemies to declare Vendetta has several advantages. We are virtually guaranteed that our Pact Brothers or Sisters will join us in the war. Our reputation does not take a hit, allowing us to credibly sign treaties in the future. And, with the Citizen's Defense Force and cutting-edge garrisons, we can be reasonably assured of minimal losses until we are able to assem
le an assault force to take the battle to our enemy.

But rather than become sidetracked onto military policy, I'd like to talk about reputation. Maintaining a Noble reputation is in my mind the most important diplomatic goal of the game. Other factions trust is slim enough on Thinker; in order to hope for other factions to Pact with us and borrow money from us, we need to maintain our credibility. With that in mind, I recommend the above policy of letting our enemies attack first. Maintaining an army geared toward defense rather than attack will allow us to both weather the initial assault and maneuver our enemies into playing their hand too quickly, by underestimating our defensive capabilities based on the size of our forces. Production, and to a lesser degree probes, would be used to supply our attack force.

Our first goal must be peace rather than war. However, when a faction threatens that peace, repressing their population by choosing totalitarian values in Social Engineering, we should not rule out the possiblity of war. I would recommend caving into ultimatums only if the faction making them is another Democracy, and only if we cannot afford a limited war to chasten the other faction and convince them that their best interest is peace.
As far as Pacts go, I think we should seek and maintain Pacts with fellow Democracies. Early on, we may wish to PAct with a Frontier government; after Ethical Calculus is widely available, we should honor existing Pacts but not be magnanimous with non-Democratic neighbors in order to maintain the Pact. We should expect our allies to aid us in wars, but if they switch away from Democracy in order to prosecute a war, we should seriously consider making peace with our mutual enemy, in order to restore Democracy.

In no case do I suggest breaking a Truce or Treaty in order to maintain a Pact. Our reputation is contingent on our honoring our commitments, and Pacts are not automatic commitments to go to war. If our allies are threatened by enemies who insist on maintaining a Treaty with us, garrisoning our allies' cities with our own units will face the belligerent faction with a choice -- leave the cities alone, or go to war with us as well.

Basically, my proposed policy comes down to two goals: honor and peace. We honor our commitments, and we seek peace -- but are not willing to submit to the dishonor of giving in to ultimatums.

Edit: Ade's policy, which he posted as I was writing this, has my support. If we can fight a war, we should not knuckle under. However, if we cannot fight a war, giving in to demands might give us time to prepare, even though it would strengthen our enemy somewhat.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

	31-08-2002 22:34									#8
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I'd like to join.

	31-08-2002 22:45									#9
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quote: Originally posted by AdamTG02 But rather than become sidetracked onto military policy, I'd like to talk about reputation. Maintaining a Noble reputation is in my mind the most important diplomatic goal of the game.

Agreed

quote: In no case do I suggest breaking a Truce or Treaty in order to maintain a Pact. Our reputation is contingent on our honoring our commitments, and Pacts are not automatic commitments to go to war. If our allies are threatened by enemies who insist on maintaining a Treaty with us, garrisoning our allies' cities with our own units will face the belligerent faction with a choice -- leave the cities alone, or go to war with us as well.

Agreed

quote: Basically, my proposed policy comes down to two goals: honor and peace. We honor our commitments, and we seek peace -- but are not willing to submit to the dishonor of giving in to ultimatums.

And agreed

quote: Edit: Ade's policy, which he posted as I was writing this, has my support. If we can fight a war, we should not knuckle under. However, if we cannot fight a war, giving in to demands might give us time to prepare, even though it would strengthen our enemy somewhat.

Are you probing my thoughts or what?

	01-09-2002 01:03									#10
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might i suggest that if we want to declare war for some reason (such as to clear our continent, or to wipe out miriam or the hive while they're weak) we do so by
A)Demanding something. if they are already in a bad mood they declare war on us, no integrity hit. if they're afraid of us, we get what we demand.
B)Demanding withdrawl. no integrity hit, and it p*sses them off
C)Probing...i'm not sure if you get an integrity hit or not.

in SP, i wanted to wipe out the drones without getting my reputation damaged. they were weak (what else is new ), so they gave in to my threats, and i got about 3 bases this way. finally, i got bored of this and probed them. they declared war, and their synthmetal garrisons fell victim to my missle rovers . no integrity hit, IIRC.

	01-09-2002 02:02									#11
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Hmm... I remembered probes would affect your integrity.

	01-09-2002 02:06									#12
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oh...well then ignore "C"

	01-09-2002 05:08									#13
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Regarding the Yang Miriam Quesiton.

Yang hate it when we choose to go to Democracy, it will almost certainely start war, and the longer we stary off Fundementalism the quicker miriam will attack us.

So we should not appease them but buy the bare minmum of breathing space needed to get our tropps to the front and upgraded.

	01-09-2002 09:42									#14
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quote: A)Demanding something. if they are already in a bad mood they declare war on us, no integrity hit. if they're afraid of us, we get what we demand.

I find that bases work best for this. If they give in, they can be very useful, and if they declare war, so what? That's what we wanted. The most annoying thing they do is when they ignore the threat but don't declare war.

	09-09-2002 16:49									#15
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*bump*

	12-09-2002 22:01									#16
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Just letting you know that Ididn't forget my membership here. But I gotta run, my rover is waiting outside. I'll be back.

	13-09-2002 05:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ade Hmm... I remembered probes would affect your integrity.

Since when? I'm quite sure they don't.

	13-09-2002 06:00									#18
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are you sure? if they don't then i'll use them more often in SP

	13-09-2002 06:02									#19
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Can't run a test right now. Posting from Uni. But from memory, even if your opponent breaks pact or declares war on you, you lose no integrity whatsoever.

	13-09-2002 17:27									#20
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This is true. And there are many ways you can get someone you don't like to do this, thus effectively declaring war without actually declaring war.

	13-09-2002 18:21									#21
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can't believe I've missed this... sign me up!

	14-09-2002 06:05									#22
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I believe that probing, even if it doesn't affect your integrity, leaves the faction in question with osmething of a grudge against you.

	14-09-2002 06:56									#23
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I'll join this group too. I've spent hours dissecting the game's diplomacy text, so perhaps I could be of some use.

	16-09-2002 02:23									#24
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I will join this group and my opinion matches Adam's.

Let wars come to us, but i also like the idea of maintaining a military force, for peacekeeping duties you can say and to quickly respond quickly once another faction declares war upon us.

-Mellian

	18-09-2002 20:21									#25
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Sign me up too. From the green perspective the overall aim is not necessarily peace in our time but to save the planet. Not for me (us ie STEP) a eco damaged Waterworld in my old age.
Suggest early as possible treaty/pact with Deirdre but know from time to time we'll differ.

	24-09-2002 16:11									#26
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quote: Sign me up too. From the green perspective the overall aim is not necessarily peace in our time but to save the planet. Not for me (us ie STEP) a eco damaged Waterworld in my old age. Suggest early as possible treaty/pact with Deirdre but know from time to time we'll differ.

What value does diplomacy have in saving the planet? Killing polluters?

	24-09-2002 19:16									#27
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Buying time to kill polluters. But also negotiating treaties and pacts with those factions who are also inclined to wage war against the worst polluting factions, even though they may not see it from that perspective

Even if in the short term, we are forced to have a treay /pact with say, the Hive (likely heavy polluters), for basic survival reasons. our diplomatic conduct during the game overall (our reputation), may secure support from others for drastic action, if necessary, regarding the UN Charter for example.

	01-10-2002 13:52									#28
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*BUMP*

quote: Buying time to kill polluters. But also negotiating treaties and pacts with those factions who are also inclined to wage war against the worst polluting factions, even though they may not see it from that perspective

And why exactly is it necessary to kill polluters? War is never good for the environment. Why should our people have to shed their blood to protect the environment of another faction? And why should the people of other factions have suffer for the environmental misdeeds of their leaders?

	01-10-2002 18:26									#29
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I'll agree there... more or less, we'd need to push for some sort of occurance in the world council rather than war to stave off the impacts of bad environmental practices.

	01-10-2002 19:28									#30
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With the Planetary Council in mind, does anyone have thoughts on what measures might be appropriate? If industrial production triggers global warming, as it did on Earth, should measures be taken to restore the preexisting climate? Or is this unsanctionable human meddling, as the Gaians might say? Just fishing for thoughts.