21-10-2002 14:50									#91
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quote: I consider the Drones to be a dysfunctional part of the populace that need to be reeducated and rehabilitated so that they can be more productive citizens. If the Drone's riot, then they are destabilizing the society and therefore are NOT part of the populace.

But the populace don't need keeping in line. The drones are the ones we need to watch out for, and if they aren't part of the populace, we don't need the to keep the rest in line.

	21-10-2002 14:52									#92
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Oh, and Drone riots can have legitimate reasons, such as poor living conditions, lack of rights, or unjust war.

	21-10-2002 16:18									#93
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That's not how they're portrayed in the games, and you know it.

	21-10-2002 16:24									#94
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quote: That's not how they're portrayed in the games, and you know it.

They're portrayed in the game as a problem, which they are, for the faction they afflict. That doesn't mean they don't have legit reasons for rioting.

	21-10-2002 16:36									#95
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Oh give me a break. They're portrayed as southern redneck hicks.

From the SMAC Manual

quote: Drones are the unskilled, unsuitable and disgruntled among your people. They're lazy troublemakers, and they all carry weapons. Drones also have a profound effect upon social order inside a base. See Drone Riots, p. 63.

	21-10-2002 16:41									#96
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Capitalist game programers propaganda, thats all. We all know that Drones are the working class made unhappy by those who takes benefits of their work.

	21-10-2002 16:48									#97
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Which is why you can have Drones under *Planned*, hmmm? Sort of seems to kill your theory. Face it, what's said in the Game Manual is fact. You can't just throw bits out of it because you don't like what it says. Deal with it.

	21-10-2002 16:56									#98
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This so called "manual" is only propaganda. Planned economy keeps the people much happier than free market anyway. According to your own theory, free market would make "lazy troublemakers, [who] all carry weapons" all amongst our bases. Thats what I call evil morganite propagandism.

	21-10-2002 17:07									#99
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Yes Pan, that's right, everything that disagrees with you and is a factual document which you can't disprove is propaganda.

Don't worry, the men in the white suits will be here shortly......

Seriously Pan, are you just plain stupid or something? I'll turn your own arguement around on you. FM has no police whatsoever, meaning more disgruntled citizens who wouldn't normally riot now can, and have access to firearms. Planned has the same disgruntled people (Generally more in fact, since personal liberties are enfringed upon), but enforces the peace using a strong police force.

	21-10-2002 17:12									#100
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Okay, so these peaceful citizens made drones by free marketers are just pacifists who went get a weapon to defend peace ?

	21-10-2002 17:55									#101
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Don't twist my words. That wasn't what I meant and you knew it. Al that is is lying.

The citizens made Drones under Free Market are the same people who would be Drones under Planned if not for the big nasty policy and their infringements on personal libities.

	21-10-2002 18:12									#102
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DBTS, I'm thinking that trading should be on an equal basis... though if they're willing to offer us a better tech for one of our lower techs, I'm all for that...

	21-10-2002 21:23									#103
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As far as I can tell, personal liberties are protected in any Democratic form of government, whatever the economic system.

quote: Democracies allow citizens to participate in government, and forego oppression and the stability it confers in favor of growth and efficiency.

Democratic governments with Planed economics are no different.

quote: A semi-market economy kept in check by fierce governmental regulation

sounds like the government is limiting economic freedom, not personal liberty. In contrast, in Free Market,

quote: citizens rendered suddenly poor by the actions unscrupulous moguls may revolt against their energy-fattened masters.

Sounds to me like the unrest in FM is not the result of the absence of social repression, but of the inequities inherent in any purely capitalistic economy. Capitalism is to some extent a system for transferring wealth from the less able to produce to the most able, and ability to make huge amounts of money is often the result of ruthlessness and luck, rather than merit.

I don't claim that my take is definitive; what do you all think?

	22-10-2002 00:52									#104
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I agree with you Adam! Those capitalists should learn a left economy does not equal a totalitarian politic, just like a free market does not equal a democratic government.

	22-10-2002 08:09									#105
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uh-oh, this has turned into another "Archaic vs. Everyone else" debate. GeneralTacticus and I were just having a little conversation (no malice, mind you. Just a simple lighthearted talk) when all of a sudden, the maelstrom appears over the horizon.



Anyway, GeneralTacticus to get back to what we were discussing...

True, our Drone's may riot for seemlingly "just" reasons, but should they turn to destroying our facilities if it comes down to it? The Drone (when it comes to full blown sabotage) should be cut out of our society by proper enforcement of PK police units or even stepping up our garrison. If this is the case, then we should watch the rest of our people (drone/talent/etc) so that more Drone's are not created.

	22-10-2002 08:12									#106
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And I do agree w/Adam

Planned does not necessarily mean a total switch to a Hive-like government (although myself and a few others may like to see that!)

although our debate on Thought Control is a different matter! (just joking!)

	22-10-2002 12:28									#107
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quote: Oh give me a break. They're portrayed as southern redneck hicks. From the SMAC Manual

Even southern redneck hicks can be right once in a while.

quote: True, our Drone's may riot for seemlingly "just" reasons, but should they turn to destroying our facilities if it comes down to it?

No. Most of the time, they just riot because they're PO'd, not because they have good reasons, not that they'd have the right to commit sabotage anyway. That doesn't mean they ALWAYS riot for bad reasons.

quote: The Drone (when it comes to full blown sabotage) should be cut out of our society by proper enforcement of PK police units or even stepping up our garrison.

I agree with you there, though I think the best way of dealing with Drones is making sure they remain such a minority that they won't be a problem.

quote: If this is the case, then we should watch the rest of our people (drone/talent/etc) so that more Drone's are not created.

Actually, we should do that all the time.

	22-10-2002 15:45									#108
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Hmmm, well since we seem to be on the same wavelength GeneralTacticus,

should we try to prevent the fomentation of drone's by assigned our citizens to specialist duties? Like doctor's or librarians?....or are we already applying these policies in our cities now?

	22-10-2002 15:54									#109
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quote: should we try to prevent the fomentation of drone's by assigned our citizens to specialist duties? Like doctor's or librarians?....or are we already applying these policies in our cities now?

AFAIK, we haven't had to apply such policies yet... I would say that if the problem is in just one or two bases, we should use specialists, but if it's a factionqide thing, we should use Psych spending instead.

	22-10-2002 16:35									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I agree with you Adam! Those capitalists should learn a left economy does not equal a totalitarian politic, just like a free market does not equal a democratic government.

And Socialists should learn that a right economy does not equal so called "wage-slavery", just like a Planned economy does not equal a "fair" democratic economy or government.

	23-10-2002 02:31									#111
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Absolutely correct.

	23-10-2002 02:54									#112
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Though, the problem remains that Free Market make drones due to inequalities. The freedom of market should never be a threat to the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

	23-10-2002 03:08									#113
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Absolutely correct. Therefore we need a middleroad between Pande's extreme left and Archaic's extreme right. Give more power to the government to control the excesses of the market.
Go social-democracy!

	23-10-2002 03:41									#114
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quote: control the excesses of the market.

Go democratic socialism !

	24-10-2002 05:34									#115
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For the record, I'm behind you 100%, Maniac. A mixed economy, not straight-up capitalism or cradle-to-the-grave socialism, is the most equitable economic system.

It's because this economy is so hard to fit into a SMAC category (though I believe Planned comes closest), and because SMAC brings in an additional criterion -- ecological harmony or the lack thereof -- that I am "flexible" on Social Engineering: Economics issues.

	24-10-2002 05:37									#116
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"Green" comes closest to the mixed economy. It's what we'd call a modified market system, similar to what the UK and Australia operate under.

However, like I've said many times, the growth negative of it precludes its use until the later stages, and even then, it will almost certainly be better to stay in FM for more Commerce Income then to go to Green and hope for enough income from Paradigm + GA.

	24-10-2002 12:23									#117
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Personally, I'd say FM using Psych would be closest to social democracy, without environmental regulations.

	24-10-2002 14:28									#118
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Hmmm.....perhaps. Though one could argue that FM without Psych, but with a great deal of facilities ("Public Works"), would be the same sort of thing. Psych is more making people think things are alright, rather than actually making things alright.

And I believe I've said many times what I think about the environmental regulations with the long term "immunizing" effects of FM.

	24-10-2002 14:55									#119
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quote: Hmmm.....perhaps. Though one could argue that FM without Psych, but with a great deal of facilities ("Public Works"), would be the same sort of thing. Psych is more making people think things are alright, rather than actually making things alright.

I would see it more as funding things that aren't facilities, but which people still need, e.g. education & healthcare.

quote: And I believe I've said many times what I think about the environmental regulations with the long term "immunizing" effects of FM.

The benefits or otherwise of environmental regulations are irrelevant. I'm simply stating that FM doesn't have them.

	24-10-2002 19:47									#120
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I would see it more as funding things that aren't facilities, but which people still need, e.g. education & healthcare.

They couldn't have those without the facilities. But I suppose that's just quibbling over a minor detail

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus The benefits or otherwise of environmental regulations are irrelevant. I'm simply stating that FM doesn't have them.

*Shrugs* Perhaps, though I know that for some the percieved benifits or lack there-of of (not) having environmental regulations will colour all their decisions on this matter. Thankfully, it would seem you aren't one of those people.