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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
FM leads to more governmental corruption through greed |
Human nature doesn't magically change because of the way your economy is set up. People are just as corruptible under Planned as under FM, but their corruption actually has more impact, as more power is concentrated into fewer hands, and there are less resources to go around.
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and more available resources! |
More resources does not equal more corruption. When resources are scarce, then you see enormous corruption, because people will desperate to grab their share. With more resources, you reduce the incentive for corruption (assuming you back this with strong laws against corruption).
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Just because our government switches to a Planned economic pattern doesn't mean it will lead to a "dying USSR-like economy". |
Oh yes, it will. Not today, not tommorow, but it will, as surely as night follows day. It is phsically impossible, without Thought Control, for a government to efficiently run an economy. Economic inefficiency and corruption were what destroyed Sovietism.
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Frankychan
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In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:21
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Human nature doesn't magically change because of the way your economy is set up. People are just as corruptible under Planned as under FM, but their corruption actually has more impact, as more power is concentrated into fewer hands, and there are less resources to go around. |
Does not the most of the 21st centuries economic power rest in oligarchical (i.e. "good-ole-boy") power? The only change would be a shift of power from private industry holders into governmental hands.
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More resources does not equal more corruption. When resources are scarce, then you see enormous corruption, because people will desperate to grab their share. With more resources, you reduce the incentive for corruption (assuming you back this with strong laws against corruption). |
When more resources are available to the "haves", they will try and control its introduction to the "have-nots". Just because a resouce is abundant does not necessarily mean that there will be less corruption. It's more about who controls the available resources rather than how much resources are available.
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Oh yes, it will. Not today, not tommorow, but it will, as surely as night follows day. It is phsically impossible, without Thought Control, for a government to efficiently run an economy. Economic inefficiency and corruption were what destroyed Sovietism. |
What destroyed 20th century Russian Soviet-ism was the lack of global economics and the US's unwillingness to open trade with "The Reds". Although true, corruption did destroy Russian communism in the 20th century, we see that US corportate corruption is/was gaining. It is/was only a matter of time before the Thought Control of the times (i.e. Mass Media) caught on to public interest did/do we see that corporate greed is/was the same as Soviet greed and corruption.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:21
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Does not the most of the 21st centuries economic power rest in oligarchical (i.e. "good-ole-boy") power? The only change would be a shift of power from private industry holders into governmental hands. |
While the economy of the 21st century is certainly not a good model for us, I'd rather keep the corruption in corporations than place it in the 'State Planning Commission'.
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When more resources are available to the "haves", they will try and control its introduction to the "have-nots". Just because a resouce is abundant does not necessarily mean that there will be less corruption. It's more about who controls the available resources rather than how much resources are available. |
Yet you somehow think this will be different under a Planned economy? The only difference between the two is that under Planned, the state becomes the corporations. Corruption doesn't become a perversion of the system, it becomes a feature of it.
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What destroyed 20th century Russian Soviet-ism was the lack of global economics and the US's unwillingness to open trade with "The Reds". |
Other factors helped to exacerbate Soviet economic difficulties, but that doesn't change the fact that they would have existed regardless. It would simply have taken longer for them to fall.
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Although true, corruption did destroy Russian communism in the 20th century, we see that US corportate corruption is/was gaining. |
US corporate corruption came about because of excessive privatisation, in that corporations were effectively permitted to audit themselves. There's no reason why we should repeat those mistake here.
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It is/was only a matter of time before the Thought Control of the times (i.e. Mass Media) caught on to public interest did/do we see that corporate greed is/was the same as Soviet greed and corruption |
I'm getting very tired of your comparing the Mass Media to Thought Control. The media has enormous power over people's perceptions, true, and this is not a good thing, but there's nothing to stop you from disbelieving the media. It is physically impossible to resist Though Control.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
Ok, of course Centralized Mass Media isn't the same as the Thought Control proces as invisioned in SMAC, but it has the same intention. And I'm sure some media moguls and 'democratic' presidents would want to thought control, if they just had the technological means. |
I agree, IRL I'm quite sure that most politicians would love some kind of Thought Control, as long as they were the ones in control. That, though, is beside the point.
As for the rest, I think Adam covered it sufficiently, so I won't bother to repeat his points.
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Kirov
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Warsaw, Poland
Sep 2002
time: 06:21
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Indeed, there's a big difference between culture of upper class and culture of working class. The 'mass culture' is directed to working and middle classes. "Media barons" are of course from upper class and they do not inherit the culture they spread.
Of course I generalize, but you get the point.
And it really does not make sense to argue whether "media barons" consciously use techniques of manipulation or not. IMHO their priority is to sell as much informations as possible, not to make people more and more stupid but these two goals are in fact the same (they will sell more if people will be more stupid), so the argument about it is really meaningless.
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Archaic
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Washed up SMAC/X University Specialist
Nov 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by lucky22
What would you suppose the proportion of "media barons" and other CEOs who went to private versus public school would look like compared to a given society as a whole? How about compared as an exclusive sample to the other strata of society.
That would only be the tip of the iceberg of social-environmental considerations. |
This goes a way back, but anyway. What's your problem with Private Schools? While I personally went to a public school, I've got no problem with people getting a better education if they can afford to pay more for that education. Education is just like any other good, from a TV to a VCR to whatever. The higher the ticket price, the higher the expectation of quality.
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Originally posted by lucky22
Next quarter's bottom line is usually the conscious concern of the moment. |
A popular misconception, but completly out of line with modern management theory and practise. Go back 50 to 100 years and it might've been right, but this hasn't been the case for quite some time now. The ones only concerned with the short term bottom line are the shareholders, those generally being the mum and dad investors who just want as high a dividend on their share portfolios as possible.
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Originally posted by Kirov
Indeed, there's a big difference between culture of upper class and culture of working class. The 'mass culture' is directed to working and middle classes. "Media barons" are of course from upper class and they do not inherit the culture they spread.
Of course I generalize, but you get the point. |
Ah, now here's the heart of the problem. You're all assuming
1) There's only the Upper Class and the Lower (Working) Class.
2) One is born into his class and cannot move between them.
1) is rebutted by the simple existance of the (Ever-growing) Middle Class
2) is rebutted by the existance of Media Moguls from humble backgrounds who worked themselves up from, for example, delivering papers, to owning the paper, to owning a stack of papers domestically, to owning many papers internationally, etc, etc, etc, to being the guy who owns News Corp. Hey, this refutes lucky22 as well. "Those in control spread a mass consumerism rather than the culture in which they are raised." See the contradiction between this and fact yet?
I think you might be failing to grasp there lucky that people in the upper classes in general deserve to be there, either through their own personal effort to get there, or through the effort of their ancestors, who worked themselves up to provide an easier life for their decendants.
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Originally posted by Kirov
And it really does not make sense to argue whether "media barons" consciously use techniques of manipulation or not. IMHO their priority is to sell as much informations as possible, not to make people more and more stupid but these two goals are in fact the same (they will sell more if people will be more stupid), so the argument about it is really meaningless. |
*BUZZ* Wrong! The better educated the populace is, the better things sell. That holds true for everything from computers to TV's to newspapers. You think they'd print the "Far Eastern Economic Review" if everyone was so dumb that they couldn't sell it? And let's not forget that dumb unskilled employees aren't of any use in this day and age. Blue collar is out, white collar is in. Better education works for everyone.
Now, while they *do* aim a significant amount of stuff at the LCD's, they don't make the LCD's any dumber than they already are. Only problem is...LCD's are generally the ones who breed faster. A sad fact, but the more intelligent you are, the longer you generally leave off having a child, and the less children you eventually have.
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25-10-2002 02:40
You claim the US has a market held in check with government regulations, and you would call it planned?? Tell me, is there one country in the world which you would call FM then? And is there one country in the western world which has less regulations for corporations, where the government has less control over them?
.....if in fact you are.
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