06-09-2002 00:51									#31
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It's the voted from the S&M crowd.

	06-09-2002 00:53									#32
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From another source, easily found using the Chinese banned search engine Google.

"According to US law, information or confessions obtained by physical threat or torture are inadmissible at trial. Law enforcement agents who use such methods are also subject to suit by the victim or can be charged with battery by the government. In countries such as Israel and Saudi Arabia, however, authorities routinely use torture to beat suspects into submission, and sections of the political establishment in the US are campaigning that such methods now be allowed in the September 11 investigation."

	06-09-2002 00:53									#33
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i'm willing to bet some are people who actually thought they were selecting the banana option.

	06-09-2002 00:55									#34
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For loinburger:

quote: St. Louis Post-Dispatch U.S. now might have to consider what once was unthinkable, Dershowitz says This story was published in Metro on Monday, November 5, 2001. By Tina Hesman Of The Post-Dispatch Americans may have to consider ideas as foreign as truth serums and torture warrants when thinking about striking a balance between liberty and security after the terrorist attacks Sept. 11. That was the message celebrity lawyer and civil libertarian Alan M. Dershowitz delivered to a crowd packed into a gymnasium Sunday at the Jewish Community Center in Creve Coeur. Dershowitz was the opening speaker for the Jewish Book Fair. He originally was scheduled to talk about his book "Supreme Injustice," a critical account of the Supreme Court's ruling on the presidential election last year. But Dershowitz instead turned his comments to civil liberties. "I'm not in the mood to start being critical of the legitimacy of the president at a time like this," he said. Dershowitz said he always supported the philosophy that it was better to let criminals go free than to unjustly detain innocent people. But he suggested that terrorist acts should make civil rights activists readjust their thinking on some issues. The American Civil Liberties Union nearly revoked his membership for suggesting that national identity cards should be required, he said. The cards would carry basic information - a person's name and Social Security number - and a picture, he proposed. Law enforcement officials and security workers could request to see the cards to verify the identity of a person at any time, he said. The civil libertarians are opposed to such a measure because they say it would violate the right to privacy. Dershowitz counters that the measure does not violate privacy rights but does take away a guarantee of anonymity that terrorists have used to their advantage. It's time to reassess laws and decide how to deal with situations that may arise when dealing with terrorists, he said. Legislators should evaluate and revise quarantine laws before a wholesale bioterrorism attack strikes the United States, he said, calling the current anthrax attacks "retail bioterrorism." Americans need to consider what measures should be allowed to get information from unwilling terror suspects, he said. After law enforcement officials have asked, begged, cajoled, threatened and bribed a close-mouthed witness, they may need to take more drastic measures to elicit vital information, Dershowitz said. Americans should begin thinking about whether it would be permissible to grant the suspect immunity from prosecution and then administer truth serum. Even torture may not be off the table as an information-gathering tool, Dershowitz said. But there must be a national debate about the circumstances in which torture is permissible and who should have the power to decide when to use it. Dershowitz suggested that judges could issue torture warrants in certain cases. Americans must plan their approach to these disquieting issues carefully and not allow the basic values of the country to erode, he said. "If Osama bin Laden comes out with a white flag, we'd darned well better arrest him. We're still a country under the rule of law," Dershowitz said. Dershowitz, a professor from Harvard who has been called the lawyer of last resort, said that even he wouldn't take bin Laden's case. "That's not a call I want to get."

	06-09-2002 00:59									#35
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No, torture is disgusting no matter what. Its definately not OK, under no conditions.

	06-09-2002 01:01									#36
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Che, you maybe didn't understood the topic correctly. Of course I and most of humans wouldn't stand real tortuing with like pinning out eyes or brning out legs and leaving stumps.

But, this topic doesn't talks about such tortuing. As far as I understood, it talks about so-called "humanic tortuing", which was introduced in Algeria at war. Prime objective of it is to create pain without killing people or making them handicapped or otherwise phisically "damaging" them for whole lifetime. So there are only 3 "major" types of tortuing remaining - tortuing with water, tortuing with electricity and psychological tortuing. None of these three types are able to create really much pain (tortuing with electricity is, but too high voltage could trigger death, so it wouldn't be called "humanic tortuing" with high voltages).

As I said, I would admit smaller crimes if tortued, but that also doesn't depends on werether I did them or not.

	06-09-2002 01:02									#37
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I should point out that it's well-know throughout the world, whether you want to admit it or not, that the U.S. has a very humanistic viewpoint that numerous countries simply don't share.
Additionally, this knowledge of our viewpoint is many times exploited.
That stokes some's fire to an extremely high level, it would appear.

	06-09-2002 01:06									#38
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I should point out that it's well-know throughout the world, whether you want to admit it or not, that the U.S. has a very humanistic viewpoint that numerous countries simply don't share.

[threadjack]

Um...I once heard that there was this Indian guy who was arrested (with about a thousand others) as a terrorist. Well, after a few months, he was convicted of credit card fraud....However he came out (not sure of all of this...) blind, having constant headaches, lost 30 pounds, among other things.....

Whether this storty is true or not, my point is that you never know what happens behind closed doors....

	06-09-2002 01:08									#39
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Torture has its place. Captured terrorists certainly should be tortured if there is a reasonable expectation that information might be gleaned that could save the lives of the innocent. These people are not US citizens and have no rights.

POWs on the other hand, or criminals, thats different.

	06-09-2002 01:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 my point is that you never know what happens behind closed doors....

That's exactly what Charlie Rich said.

	06-09-2002 01:14									#41
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jimmy, re-read my posts

	06-09-2002 01:15									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The American Civil Liberties Union nearly revoked his membership for suggesting that national identity cards should be required, he said.

The ACLU is a good organization in principle, but as far as I'm concerned they're every bit as culpable as Bush/Cheney/etc. for the current crisis over civil liberties. Reacting to a differing opinion by sticking your fingers in your ears and howling is no way to come to a fair resolution.

	06-09-2002 01:16									#43
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand That's exactly what Charlie Rich said.

(If this person is a common american personality, forgive me but) whos charlie rich?

	06-09-2002 01:23									#44
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Country-western singer.

CHORUS:
And when we get behind closed doors
Then she lets her hair hang down
And she makes me glad that I'm a man
Oh no one knows what goes on behind closed doors.
My, behind closed doors.

Last edited by SlowwHand on 06-09-2002 at 01:28

	06-09-2002 01:31									#45
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Torture never leads to reliable information. People crack under the pressure simply to get the pain to stop.

Even if it's simply water trickling down your back for 3 days, you'll crack and say, "Osama bin Laden is in Cave #7!!!" just to make them turn off the water. Even if it is just for 30 seconds until they say "You're lying." and turn it back on.

	06-09-2002 02:32									#46
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I am against physically harming the subject of interrogation. In all other cases, It's ok by me. ( yes, that includes standing for a long time )

	06-09-2002 02:47									#47
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quote: These people are not US citizens and have no rights.

Does that mean that I have no rights when I visit the US?

	06-09-2002 03:03									#48
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quote: And after mildly torturing them, they can be mildly executed.

You brought it to the point!

Truth finding is usually the reason for torture (they say, at least - I don't believe it). And to this, it doesn't do a good job. Of course there are situation where the torturer gets what he/she wants to have. But on average, torture doesn't give a result closer to truth. For any degree of torture there will be more who admit something they didn't do (and sometimes the stress of an interrogation alone - without torture - does the job!) than strong-minded guilty who confess only with torture. The only case where torture gives a result closer to truth is learning about (military) secrets. Which I despise anyway.

	06-09-2002 03:21									#49
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I don't think it matters much what Apolytoners say about this.

What does Ashcroft think?

(tries, fails to suppress shudder)

	06-09-2002 03:45									#50
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What does Ashcroft think?

Ashcroft thinks that every good American citizen should volunteer for a week of torture in order to prove that he (shes aren't citizens in Ashcroft's world) is not a perverted criminal. Those who don't volunteer are quite obviously commies who need to be lined up against a wall and shot.

	06-09-2002 03:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Torture is never acceptable, not even to save a life.

You should have your head examined for even suggesting this, slowwhand.

	06-09-2002 04:15									#52
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Evidently, once again, you didn't even read what the thread you're posting in is about, Sava.
Typical. At least you're consistent.

	06-09-2002 04:28									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Sure making someone stand is not torture if it lasts few hours.. but if it lasts 'till you confess' or few days, I think it's a bit too much. Everybody is not guilty anyway.

If it really becomes so painful to continue standing then I'd just sit on the floor. What could they really do to you if you refused to stand? Also I think we should make a distinction between torturing someone and simply making someone uncomfortable. Torture causes extream pain while disconforort is simply... well... uncomfortable.

	06-09-2002 04:33									#54
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I love coming here. It makes me feel so smart.

Yeah. Don't worry. What could they realy do ?


Thanks, Oerdin. I needed a laugh.

	06-09-2002 04:40									#55
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Laugh all you want my friend but when you're done rolling on the floor maybe you can stop and really think about the question. Since torture is outlawed, and juries are very responsive to throwing out any case they procieve as being tainted by police brutality, there really is very little the police can do to stop you if you pacifly sit on the floor.

In this case the policman's hands really would be severly restricted.

Last edited by Oerdin on 06-09-2002 at 04:50

	06-09-2002 04:43									#56
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Ok, but once again, this wasn't in the context of a policemen hassling you as you come home from a harmless trip to the library.
Get in line over there with Sava.

	06-09-2002 04:55									#57
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torture is absolutely acceptable in limited circumstances. Not in cases to obtain a confession. As has already been pointed out, it is far from an effective technique in such circumstances. In other cases, in order to protect the lives of innocent victims, it is not only acceptable, but imperative that authorities take the steps necessary to save those in danger.

Can you people see no case in which the use of torture would be appropriate? Think of a case where WMD are in place threatening the lives of thousands or millions. You are kidding yourselves to think that torture would and should not be used to protect those innocent lives.

	06-09-2002 04:57									#58
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Slowwhand perhaphes you will understand better if you read a few books about American law and pasive resistence. The book "Ain't Gonna Study War No More: The Story of America's Peace Seekers" by Milton Meltzer will help to fill you in on exactly what one can and cannot legally do as a pacifist resister in the U.S. plus it will help you understand the limits of police power.

	06-09-2002 05:05									#59
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Oerdin, jeez buddy. At first I was joking, but now you can just be the leader of the line Sava is in.

	06-09-2002 05:29									#60
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The Constitution of the United States prohibits torture, case closed.

Oh, and despite jimmytrick's ludicrous assertion, the rights guaranteed in the Constitution, excepting those that apply specifically to citizenship, apply to everyone within U.S. borders or under U.S. arrest/imprisonment. You can't torture them, either.