07-09-2002 02:35									#121
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I think a little psychological torture is quite alright, but there has to be a good reason to believe that the suspect is indeed guilty.
Dunno about physical torture, i don't think it's sophisticated enough for us westerners to use

	07-09-2002 02:46									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian That this has to be spelled out is in and of itself rather apalling. -Arrian

A) I'm not for torture in any setting
but
B) What a babe in the woods you are. I can see you now. "Unfair, unfair! This is appalling. You can't REALLY be torturing me".
because
C) A GREAT amount of countries do indeed view this use of torture a lot differently than the U.S., Britain, and others, as has been stated numerous times in this thread.

	07-09-2002 02:48									#123
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quote: The American Civil Liberties Union nearly revoked his membership for suggesting that national identity cards should be required

I'm disgusted that they didn't.

On the main topic: I am absolutely sickened by the supporters of torture. No matter how "mild", torture is ALWAYS inhumane. I am relieved that the majority of us are civilized, but disturbed that almost a third are not...

	07-09-2002 03:08									#124
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Torture is certainly unacceptable, under 99% of conditions...yet, can truth serums be considered a form of torture?

	07-09-2002 03:16									#125
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I wouldn't think so, but I'm no expert.

I've been trying to get a number on countries that are known to employ torture.
Most articles I read cited 70-80 countries, but some put the total much higher.


These were 2 of the sites.

http://www.stoptorture.org/
(A part of Amnesty International)

http://www.omct.org/

Last edited by SlowwHand on 07-09-2002 at 03:37

	07-09-2002 03:23									#126
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Blame Sava for that one. He's the one who implied that it's possible to be moral and evil (or immoral and good).

Should I be shocked that an Apolytoner would blame another fellow Apolytoner?

Or should I be shocked for the never ending behavioral pattern of threadjacking for that matter.

	07-09-2002 04:04									#127
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wouldn't any kind of torture just be a means to glean false confessions....i mean...if someone didn't do it, they didn't do it, and if their hell bent on not confessing...
well,...there are other ways in this day of technology to prove that they did..
i think any form of torture is unnecessary.

	07-09-2002 23:30									#128
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 I'm disgusted that they didn't.

Indeed. God forbid that somebody express an opinion.

	08-09-2002 00:17									#129
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Or should I be shocked for the never ending behavioral pattern of threadjacking for that matter.

There isn't a single OT thread that can't be improved by a bit of a threadjack.

	08-09-2002 00:28									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov They are also suspects, not convicts, as they've never been charged with a crime. They are detainees, as you said, and there is no rationale for torture.

The Geneva & Hague conventions state that during a declared war or acknowledged conflict combatants who do not wear military uniforms may be summarially exicuted as spies. The U.S. has decided not to exicute them and instead will hold them for the duration of the conflict. This is in line with standard international war time practices.

I would still be against Torture in the classical sense. Certainly no one should be put on the rack or locked in an iron maiden, that said, they should be made uncomfortable and the conditions they are kept in should be such as to make them believe divulging anything they know is preferable to staying where they are.

	08-09-2002 00:40									#131
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quote: The American Civil Liberties Union nearly revoked his membership for suggesting that national identity cards should be required

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 I'm disgusted that they didn't.

You want someone thrown out simply because he advicated useing a national I.D. card. A card similiar to one used in most other industrialized countries? The ACLU is supposed to be about prtecting constituitional rights not about advicating political actions that have nothing to do with the constituition.

The ACLU's nonprofit status is contingent to it maintaining a nonpartisan position on all things political. If they started to screen their membership to make sure everyone espoused the same far left political mantra then they would have to registar as a political lobbying group and would probably go bankrupt since they'd would lose their tax protected status.

	08-09-2002 00:48									#132
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quote: The ACLU is supposed to be about prtecting constituitional rights not about advicating political actions that have nothing to do with the constituition.

The ACLU is about protecting civil liberties. [Mandatory] National ID cards are clearly about robbing the civil liberties of "illegal" immigrants.

	08-09-2002 01:43									#133
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What would you call your Social Security Card, among others ?

	08-09-2002 01:49									#134
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quote: The ACLU is about protecting civil liberties. [Mandatory] National ID cards are clearly about robbing the civil liberties of "illegal" immigrants.

So you would be against national I.D. cards because it would expose some people's criminal wrong doing?

	08-09-2002 03:11									#135
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*Debatable statement ahead!*

"torture" is a relative term. I'm a pansy, and hate pain or discomfort. But what about a masochist? Would torture for them be getting stuck in a room with fluffy walls, no corners or angles, and light classical music playing?

Also, having Dubya representing your nationality is more than 'mild' torture.

	08-09-2002 04:20									#136
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger its immoral to cheat in your exams, i wouldn'y say that was evil though

What if it was a neurosurgery exam?

	08-09-2002 04:25									#137
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While I'm here I'd like to mention that there is no such thing as "truth serum". What is generally claimed to be a truth serum is Sodium Pentothal, a type of rapidly acting injectable barbiturate. It sedates the subject but does not keep him from concealing a truth that he knows will harm him. It's like saying that drunks never lie.

	08-09-2002 04:33									#138
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Right. They just tend to drool and slur their words, while they lie.

	08-09-2002 11:50									#139
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quote: What would you call your Social Security Card, among others ?

A police officer can't order me to give him my social security card without a damn good reason. National ID's have a wider scope than SS cards (which I think has far too much of a scope anyways).

quote: So you would be against national I.D. cards because it would expose some people's criminal wrong doing?

No, I would be against national ID cards because it facillitates authoritarian oppression.

	08-09-2002 12:35									#140
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It's the same as having a passport. Do passports facilitate authoritarian oppression? Using them certainly would help to curb illegal activiaties such as foreign flight students over staying there visas.

	08-09-2002 12:38									#141
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I wouldn't mind there being a national ID...as long as all it was required for was the same things that regular IDs are required for nowadays.

If that is so, it doesn't do anything except facilitate the paperwork and make it harder to get a fake...

	08-09-2002 12:39									#142
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Huh? I only have to show a passport to the government when I'm travelling internationally. Think a little man!

BTW, yes they do, albeit to a much more limited extent.

	08-09-2002 12:44									#143
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quote: I wouldn't mind there being a national ID...as long as all it was required for was the same things that regular IDs are required for nowadays.

Neither would I. However, over here, people have been arguing, for instance, people have to always have their ID's in case the police thinks you look like an illegal immigrant - or since 9/11, a terrorist. I don't mind national ID's all that much provided they aren't mandatory.

	08-09-2002 12:51									#144
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Exactly. If we have national IDs, I want them to be amalgamations of nowadays' IDs. I want them to be my driver's license, medicare card, birth certificate, passport and student ID all at once.

And I want to be able to leave it at home and take a walk or a bus ride if I feel like it.

	08-09-2002 13:43									#145
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If they are not manditory then they would be useless. We should have national I.D.s and they should be manditory every time you want a job, get pulled over for a traffic violation, file your taxes, buy a car or house, enroll in public school, and a great many other things. This way criminals who have broken the law and are here illegally can be farrated out and sent back where they belong.

	08-09-2002 13:49									#146
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quote: If they are not manditory then they would be useless.

They would be useless to assist in the oppression of unlucky immigrants, yes. That's a good thing.

	08-09-2002 14:26									#147
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--

Last edited by metalhead on 09-09-2002 at 02:22

	08-09-2002 14:33									#148
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What about the people who arent guilty? I don't know about other people, but I'd certainly break quite easily to escape most forms of torture.

We can't commit this atrocity knowing that a ton of people who arent guilty are going to be punished for a crime they haven't even commited.

quote: In the context of terroprism, there are many things to be gleaned from these people that they will only give up if faced with a lifetime of physical pain.

The United States (like what it did after Pearl Harbour) rounded up about a thousand Arabs and detained them. Imagine if they had tortured each and every one of them (and I wouldnt put it past them). How many innocent people would be charged and possibly (probably) convicted of a henious crime that they have NO CONNECTION to?

Torture in any circumstance is wrong and inhumane. It's not okay to torture ANYBODY for information.

	08-09-2002 16:43									#149
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If someone tortures me, I'd confess I murdered both Kennedys and Luther King. And I hadn't born yet

quote: In over 90% of muder cases, the prime suspect is guilty

I only hope you'll never belong to the other 10%. Because you would confess.

	08-09-2002 18:15									#150
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quote: You want someone thrown out simply because he advicated useing a national I.D. card. A card similiar to one used in most other industrialized countries? The ACLU is supposed to be about prtecting constituitional rights not about advicating political actions that have nothing to do with the constituition. The ACLU's nonprofit status is contingent to it maintaining a nonpartisan position on all things political. If they started to screen their membership to make sure everyone espoused the same far left political mantra then they would have to registar as a political lobbying group and would probably go bankrupt since they'd would lose their tax protected status.

I think it's OK that he wasn't kicked out for just this. BUt with everything else he's done, advocating torture and all, he should not still be in the ACLU.