06-09-2002 20:23									#91
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Some are. Just like any group.

	06-09-2002 20:24									#92
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quote: Sonic SlowwHand, Christians aren't extremists.

Not all of them, but neither are all Muslims extremists. There are extremists in either religion, though.

Edit: Cross posts are hating on me.

	06-09-2002 20:25									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, if someone did that to my brother, it would certainly make me not want to kill as many of you as I possibly could. I'd buy up as many weapons as I could and go on a hunting spree in a mall. In other words, don't torture Theben.

The most important point of the Felch Doctrine is to troll in the most horribly repugnant way imaginable.

Should we torture the people and brainwash them first, making them grateful to give their lives to science? I think that would be a splendid little bit of icing on the cake. Especially if you have them record a message right before they die an agonizing death.

"Hey mom, I decided that I love Big Brother enough to volunteer for a science experiment that will strengthen IngSoc and help defeat its enemies throughout the world. Cheers!"

	06-09-2002 20:26									#94
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Pardon me, I mis-spoke.
KKK considers themselves Christians, but they aren't.
Just like Bin Laden isnt a normal every day Muslim.

	06-09-2002 20:28									#95
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The Felch doctrine usually works just fine, but if there's somebody like jimmytrick around then there's a good chance that people will mistake the Felchist troller as just another ****wit.

	06-09-2002 21:09									#96
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Your momma wears combat boots.

	06-09-2002 21:32									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If it really becomes so painful to continue standing then I'd just sit on the floor. What could they really do to you if you refused to stand

The standard practice used by Scotland Yard in the 1970's was to drag the suspect to a standing position by the ears, hair or testicles.

	06-09-2002 21:35									#98
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Camp X-Ray is an island, on an island, on an island. It is a sealed off zone within the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay, which is itself sealed off from the rest of the island of Cuba. That is one of the reasons the US chose to bring the al-Qaeda and Taleban suspects here: it is impossible to get to, unless the US military flies you in. At the same time though, it is not US territory, so those imprisoned there have none of the rights of someone brought to American soil. Washington has said repeatedly that the prisoners at Camp X-Ray have no rights

That's the "Road Trip" defence, isn't it? "It's not torture if it takes place in another country."

	06-09-2002 21:41									#99
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I don't see how location has much to do with it; but then, what do I know ?

	06-09-2002 22:04									#100
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I would be appalled to learn that U.S. personel acting in official capacity had so disgraced their uniform and the country they serve by participating in torture.

Loinburger:

One can be evil and amoral, I suppose. Like the politician who ruthlessly connives to gain power, but does so without breaking laws or maliciously hurting others.

But I don't think one can be evil and moral, no. Unless one is evil but never acts upon one's evil nature, which seems very unlikely.

Perhaps we should consider the D&D system of alignment...

	06-09-2002 22:42									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov One can be evil and amoral, I suppose. Like the politician who ruthlessly connives to gain power, but does so without breaking laws or maliciously hurting others.

The only amoral actions are the kind that are involuntary, like breathing or jerking your hand away from a hot stove.

quote: But I don't think one can be evil and moral, no. Unless one is evil but never acts upon one's evil nature, which seems very unlikely.

Evil's in thought and action, not just thought. Some people may have more of a predisposition towards "evil thought" than others, but if they never willfully act on those thoughts then they're clean as far as I'm concerned.

	06-09-2002 23:01									#102
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Back to the thread's topic.

1) Jimmy and Sava seem to be unable to construct coherent arguments in this case, as they use emotional bashing against those with whom they disagree.

2) Torture is always wrong and I don't care what nice, fluffy tag you want to put on it, to make it sound nicer NO MATTER HOW MILD IT WOULD BE.

3) As Boris pointed out, there is a difference between convicts and detainees, but citizens and non-citizens have the same basic rights within the territory of United States.
But of course, as mentioned, we have many detainees in Cuba outside the territory of United States.

4) If you want to start a philsophical discussion on morality and amorality, start a new thread.

	06-09-2002 23:13									#103
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quote: Torture Ok?

What a silly question. Of course not.

-Arrian

	06-09-2002 23:16									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I would be appalled to learn that U.S. personel acting in official capacity had so disgraced their uniform and the country they serve by participating in torture.

Then be appalled. Torture was used in Haiti, in Kuwait, and definately in Vietnam. I wouldn't be surprised if it was used in Somolia and Kosovo as well.

	06-09-2002 23:22									#105
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I wouldn't be surproised if it was used in Somolia

The only credible accussations I've seen arising out of Somalia were against the Canadians. Maybe we're starting to get better at cover ups.

I haven't heard any allegations of torture by US forces in Kosovo.

	06-09-2002 23:25									#106
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun 4) If you want to start a philsophical discussion on morality and amorality, start a new thread.

Why, you don't think that torture is an ethical issue?

	06-09-2002 23:42									#107
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Why, you don't think that torture is an ethical issue?

Well of course it can serve as an ethics issue, but be sure you don't divert too much by going too far with the basic discussion of amorality and morality.

	06-09-2002 23:48									#108
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Then be appalled. Torture was used in Haiti, in Kuwait, and definately in Vietnam. I wouldn't be surprised if it was used in Somolia and Kosovo as well.

Yeah, exactly. We're a bunch of brutal mother-****ers. It's about time we stopped pretending and started advertising.

	07-09-2002 00:14									#109
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Wait just a minute. Time out, Felch.
We? You got a mouse in your pocket?
In Somalia and Vietnam, torture was most definitely practiced, on Americans.

	07-09-2002 00:14									#110
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Well of course it can serve as an ethics issue, but be sure you don't divert too much by going too far with the basic discussion of amorality and morality.

Blame Sava for that one. He's the one who implied that it's possible to be moral and evil (or immoral and good).

	07-09-2002 00:16									#111
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We in the national sense Slowwhand. Sorry if I confused you there.

	07-09-2002 00:21									#112
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I understand fully what you said.

In Somalia, gangs led by Warlords dismembered and dragged bodies of servicemen through the streets.
They also shielded themselves with innocent women and children, using (as I pointed out earlier) America's humanistic way of thinking to their advantage.

I won't even go into talking about Vietnam.

	07-09-2002 00:24									#113
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Which is exactly why I encourage toture. Somewhere in here I explained the best way to deal with captured enemies, feel free to check it out.

	07-09-2002 00:35									#114
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Mild torture?

Fetch...the soft cushions! And the comfy chair!
Confess! Confess! Confess!




IOW, you gotta be out of you friggin' minds...

	07-09-2002 00:36									#115
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This is another of those confusing issues for me.
I recognize and acknowledge that much of the world doesn't play the game like the U.S. plays.
Given that, it's extremely tempting to say, "Screw this. Reap what you've sowed. Back at ya".

	07-09-2002 00:40									#116
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But then how can you complain about things like the WTC attack, if nothing is off limits? It's the restraint that makes us western countries "better".

	07-09-2002 00:44									#117
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That's right, Jaakko.
Just because it sucks, doesn't mean it can't suck more.

	07-09-2002 01:22									#118
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I won't even go into talking about Vietnam.

Vietnamese torture of Americans doesn't justify American torture of Vietnamese.

We know that Canuk's tortured some Somoli. I wouldn't doubt that Americans also did it, but without proof, I won't tsay that they actually did use torture.

Frankly, if we stoop to their level, then there is nothing special about our country and no reason to support it.

	07-09-2002 01:51									#119
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That this has to be spelled out is in and of itself rather apalling.

-Arrian

	07-09-2002 01:53									#120
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Well, you know us Americans are barely evolved barbarians.