06-09-2002 05:43									#61
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There's absolutely no way torture is acceptable. People will admit anything Ashcroft wants, when put under such stress.

	06-09-2002 07:01									#62
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I think as long as it's done in order to deter people from committing terrorist acts, it's okay.

For example, you catch a suicide bomber. You put them in a chamber, and gradually increase the air pressure at a pace that their body can keep up with. Then after the pressure in the chamber is several times that of normal surface air, or whatever, you open it up. Person dies horrible agonizing death, and you send footage to their family and friends to let them know what happened.

Be sure to include assurances that the bomber died in the cause of science, and that he died just as he was planning on anyways - by exploding. The cause of science thing is important. I'm sure the family of the typical suicide bomber would be grateful to know that their child died reducing the amount of ignorance in the world.

	06-09-2002 07:03									#63
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Torture during interrogation I'm opposed to however. I think that if someone wants to freely share information about their organization, that's great. But they still have to be brutally murdered in some cruel Josef Mengele-esque science experiment.

	06-09-2002 07:04									#64
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Again, that would be unconstitutional.

It would also make us as bad, if not worse, than the terrorists. What a monstrous idea.

	06-09-2002 07:05									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The Constitution of the United States prohibits torture, case closed. Oh, and despite jimmytrick's ludicrous assertion, the rights guaranteed in the Constitution, excepting those that apply specifically to citizenship, apply to everyone within U.S. borders or under U.S. arrest/imprisonment. You can't torture them, either.

The al Qaeda and Taliban detainees in the U.S. detention facilities at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. are not within US borders or under arrest or imprisonment. They have no, I repeat, no rights. Why do you think we put them there?

	06-09-2002 07:08									#66
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Boris, we can outsource the torture. Let the Israelis do it.

Besides, it's not like we haven't done bad things in the past. Slavery, Indian slaughters, firebombings, Plan Columbia. Our hands are already bloody, we may as well go whole hog.

	06-09-2002 07:25									#67
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I really don't think I ever said that. He just post that because I make pro-Turkey posts and that pisses him off.

I think under certain circumstances though, such as with capture Al-Qaedas, torture could be helpful to hinder that group's attempts at terrorism.

	06-09-2002 07:27									#68
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Camp X-Ray is an island, on an island, on an island.
It is a sealed off zone within the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay, which is itself sealed off from the rest of the island of Cuba.
That is one of the reasons the US chose to bring the al-Qaeda and Taleban suspects here: it is impossible to get to, unless the US military flies you in.
At the same time though, it is not US territory, so those imprisoned there have none of the rights of someone brought to American soil.
Washington has said repeatedly that the prisoners at Camp X-Ray have no rights

	06-09-2002 07:28									#69
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick The al Qaeda and Taliban detainees in the U.S. detention facilities at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. are not within US borders or under arrest or imprisonment. They have no, I repeat, no rights. Why do you think we put them there?

They are also suspects, not convicts, as they've never been charged with a crime. They are detainees, as you said, and there is no rationale for torture.

And I vehemently disagree with that judge's decision anyway. It sets an incredibly dangerous precedent that gives the U.S. the green light to indefinitely detain anyone just by ferrying them to a base and refusing to charge them with a crime.

	06-09-2002 07:30									#70
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Well, Boris, boo ****ing hoo.

	06-09-2002 07:31									#71
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Hmmm...question: The land is not technically American soil because it is leased from Cuba.

So technically, it is Cuban sovereign territory. If that is the case, would these men therefore be entitled to any rights given to such detainees that Cuba guarantees? It's their land, after all...

	06-09-2002 07:35									#72
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And another thing Boris, just so you will understand, George W. in mentioning the de tain ees, remarked that it was so unfortunate about the 2,000 other al-Qaeda and Taleban that sadly did not live to make the trip to Cuba.

Boo ***ing hoo,
Stick your vehement disagreement up your wazoo.

	06-09-2002 07:37									#73
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Cuban rights. Cuban army chief Raul Castro, brother of Cuban leader Fidel, paid a visit and offered his help should any of the prisoners escape.

Boo ****ing hoo Boris.

	06-09-2002 07:47									#74
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jimmytrick, you are the king of whiners on this board. You whine about anything with Civ3, you whine about anything that rattles your sense over uberpatriotism, you whine whenever someone even breathes a disagreement about something the administration has done...so your cute little boo ****ing hoo line is meaningless, since you're the biggest boo ****ing hooer around.

Perhaps one day you'll stop boo ****ing hooing and learn to argue with people without the stupidity. Until then, you can always stick your boo ****ing hoos up your wazoo.

	06-09-2002 07:51									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Boris, we can outsource the torture. Let the Israelis do it.

You may have a future in manufacturing.

If this thread had been about civil resistance and torture, like a couple thought it just had to be, I could bring up that Rodney King's passive resistance didn't yield much luck.
Bordered pret-ty close to torture, as I recall.

	06-09-2002 07:53									#76
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Bordered? No bordering about it, Sloww, he was savagely beaten. It certainly fits the definition of torture.

	06-09-2002 07:54									#77
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At first I thought you damn conservative baffoons just disagreed with me on a few points. Now I know you guys are truly evil and immoral.

	06-09-2002 08:01									#78
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That would be buffoon, Sava.

	06-09-2002 08:03									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Now I know you guys are truly evil and immoral.

Minor threadjack here, but is it possible to be "evil and moral," or perhaps "good and immoral"? Discuss.

	06-09-2002 08:03									#80
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I'll admit the chain link cages we used for housing the detainees were a little rough, but the buildings built for the interrogations are quite nice.

	06-09-2002 08:03									#81
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you're that too jammytreck

	06-09-2002 08:07									#82
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He's quite nice? Or a little rough?

There's too much cross-posting going on around here.

	06-09-2002 08:22									#83
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"If that is the case, would these men therefore be entitled to any rights given to such detainees that Cuba guarantees? It's their land, after all..."

Then let Cuba enforce those rights.

	06-09-2002 08:27									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X You put them in a chamber, and gradually increase the air pressure at a pace that their body can keep up with. Then after the pressure in the chamber is several times that of normal surface air, or whatever, you open it up. Person dies horrible agonizing death, and you send footage to their family and friends to let them know what happened.

Yes, if someone did that to my brother, it would certainly make me not want to kill as many of you as I possibly could.

I'd buy up as many weapons as I could and go on a hunting spree in a mall. In other words, don't torture Theben.

	06-09-2002 18:20									#85
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Minor threadjack here, but is it possible to be "evil and moral," or perhaps "good and immoral"? Discuss.

Wouldn't any exteremist group, be they Muslim, Christian, KKK, or whatever group Sava belongs to, fit as the answer to your question ?

	06-09-2002 19:07									#86
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no matter what kind of torture you do, it will end up causing damage. it's a simple fact. you hurt someone, they remember. you hurt someone over and over, they will remember.

so obviously, torturing someone will only serve to make others angrier, and won't always leave you with the results you want.

ah, well. humans are a damn stupid lot anyway, i suppose killing off a few more can't hurt in the long run.

	06-09-2002 20:11									#87
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Wouldn't any exteremist group, be they Muslim, Christian, KKK, or whatever group Sava belongs to, fit as the answer to your question?

I dunno, I'd always thought that "evil" was the same as "immoral," but when Sava said "evil and immoral" I thought that maybe he was referring to two different things.

I suppose somebody can be "moral according to their own ****ed up use of the term, but ill wicked according to any rational use of the term."

	06-09-2002 20:12									#88
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its immoral to cheat in your exams, i wouldn'y say that was evil though

	06-09-2002 20:17									#89
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Exactly, Loinburger.

	06-09-2002 20:20									#90
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SlowwHand, Christians aren't extremists.