16-10-2002 06:10									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Bearcat Rugby: The Ball's Out!

That has to be a strong contender!

	16-10-2002 06:19									#452
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On a lighter note, I notice that the Brumbies have indeed signed former Boks U21 skipper and centre Clyde Rathbone. I hope he has some more strings to his bow because the Brumbies could be said to be already quite well off for centres with Stirling Mortlock, Pat Howard, Jimmy Holbeck and a very talented youngster in Joel Wilson.

BTW, Havak, I watched Pat Howard in the local club grand final on the weekend. His team went down narrowly but he gave them a huge chance with a great solo try with about 5 minutes to go. He did well through the entire final series, and while club footy's a whole lot different to S12, the creativity and class he showed augers well for him. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see him return to your part of the world. It would take an awful lot of good luck - for him - and very bad luck - for others - to see him in Wallaby kit.

	16-10-2002 12:15									#453
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quote: But I have it on good authority that you've never been offside in your life, LDiCesares.

Of course, but the referees sometimes make bad decisions, you know. By the way, it is funny to see referees decisions termed as arbitrary. In French, a referee is called un arbitre. I think it says it all.

quote: The bottom line is that the breakdown - by its very nature - has always been the most contentious part of the game and probably always will be. The bothersome thing here is that there are certain refs whom you know are more likely to err in things like "holding on".

I agree, and I can't see any way out. Making rulings in an area so prone to mischief is too hard, so common sense and referee interpretation has to be relied upon. Unless refs can be telepath and read the thoughts of the players to know whether they tried to move away but couldn't or pretended they couldn't or thought they could hold on just a bit more, we will always have to adjust the play to the refs we are given.

	16-10-2002 12:26									#454
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quote: I liked Tamerlin's "Commonwealth Wars" one better.

It was a class suggestion but it doesn’t reflect the dynamic properly. It would need to be “Commonwealth Wars: Aussies versus all the rest”?

quote: Havak, scrapping this rule will have an advantage for the Tigers, Franck Tournaire will cost your team less points.

Well that is one upside to it I guess.

quote: 'Tis a pity one can't legislate for common sense in refs.

Quite right. I recognised Mr McHugh from your description of ‘some refs’ by the way.

Your point that these things boil down to the officials judgment is well made. As long as there is a human factor involved no referee will ever get it quite right. And I don’t any ref will ever please both sides.
I hope Caligastia is noting all these titles as there’s enough for a hundred years worth of threads now
Based on his own law discussion how about Rugby – coming in from the side

I noticed the Rathbone decision but decided not to mention it. Now you have though
This seems different to the Vickerman case, at least he moved to Aus as a youngster. Rathbone captained the Bok U-21 this season. He IS South African. He is likely to represent Australia at senior level. It’s not right whatever rationale you roll out for it.

quote: Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see him return to your part of the world. It would take an awful lot of good luck - for him - and very bad luck - for others - to see him in Wallaby kit.

We would have him back anytime. He was a great crowd favourite here and, with all respect to Kafer he isn’t in the same class.

That lad I thought was leveraging his contract just signed a new five year deal with his L***** club by the way.

	16-10-2002 12:37									#455
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Of course, but the referees sometimes make bad decisions, you know.

Frankly, I don't know how you remain so patient with the incompetents.

quote: By the way, it is funny to see referees decisions termed as arbitrary. In French, a referee is called un arbitre. I think it says it all.

quote: I agree, and I can't see any way out. Making rulings in an area so prone to mischief is too hard, so common sense and referee interpretation has to be relied upon. Unless refs can be telepath and read the thoughts of the players to know whether they tried to move away but couldn't or pretended they couldn't or thought they could hold on just a bit more, we will always have to adjust the play to the refs we are given.

Very true. I suppose we should look on the bright side. It's another of rugby's wonderfully unique qualities - there's a part of the game in which absolutely no one really knows what's going on! How many sports can claim that? And don't anyone suggest that silly Winter Olympics sport where they push a stone down a lane of ice and chase it with brooms. If the stone was dirty, why didn't they sweep it before they pushed it? They seem to know what's going on. Buggered if I do.

	16-10-2002 12:46									#456
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Quite right. I recognised Mr McHugh from your description of ‘some refs’ by the way.

Can't you tee up one of your ex-front row chums to run onto the field and flatten him again?

quote: I noticed the Rathbone decision but decided not to mention it. Now you have though This seems different to the Vickerman case, at least he moved to Aus as a youngster. Rathbone captained the Bok U-21 this season. He IS South African. He is likely to represent Australia at senior level. It’s not right whatever rationale you roll out for it.

Let's not paddle down this stream again?

quote: We would have him back anytime. He was a great crowd favourite here and, with all respect to Kafer he isn’t in the same class.

Different players, but they didn't call Kafter "Tugboat" for nothing.

quote: That lad I thought was leveraging his contract just signed a new five year deal with his L***** club by the way.

Oh well, I hope he profited from it. Although apparently he's a top L***** player so he probably could have asked the earth regardless.

	16-10-2002 13:38									#457
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Can't you tee up one of your ex-front row chums to run onto the field and flatten him again?

Slowly now. I was at the game. I actually felt sorry for the poor guy.

And Mr. McHugh too.

	16-10-2002 15:05									#458
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quote: Can't you tee up one of your ex-front row chums to run onto the field and flatten him again?

I’d rather he saw sense and retired. I’m not a big fan. Give me Chris White any day.

I don’t want to joke about the assault on him really – it brought massive shame on SA rugby. He might be a ref who comes across as biased at times (and you know I have thought that of him myself – Paris 2001, Neath 2002) but what happened in SA was plain wrong. I doubt DoT will agree with me but suspending them from international competition might make them take it more seriously than they seem to have so far?

I mean Bok refs are not exactly popular here but if one was ever assaulted the culprit would do serious time (I think you would be in trouble simply under provisions of the safety of sports ground acts for starters).

quote: Let's not paddle down this stream again?

I have to state occasionally how ludicrous I think it is.

But I’m fair – I find it as ludicrous in the case of David Hilton. If you didn’t know he is the Englishman who played in two world cups for Scotland before they discovered that his Scottish grandsire actually wasn’t (unless Bristol is in Scotland). He has just re-qualified under residency rules.

Old tugboat is a much more physical player than Pat was. He is not bad by any means but because he is doing the basic work of a centre and not showboating step and goes he just hasn’t grabbed the crowd in the same way. I kind of like him – he is so solid it draws players in to the tackle to hold him and that frequently gives the wings space (to waste hopelessly this year sadly).

The guy is the L***** equivalent of the ‘Players player of the year’ apparently. Stuff him – we only want l***** boys who have seen the light and want to play real rugby for the nature of it and not just the dosh. Incidentally I don’t know if he is injured but the lad we spent ages tempting from Hull RL over the summer – I haven’t seen him myself or heard his name in dispatches yet. More money well spent!!

	16-10-2002 16:07									#459
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Quite right. I recognised Mr McHugh from your description of ‘some refs’ by the way.

In France, almost all the referees should receive an intravenous injection of "common sense" before the game starts, some would also be well advised to ingest a pill of "honesty".

	16-10-2002 16:27									#460
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quote: Originally posted by Devil of Truth Slowly now. I was at the game. I actually felt sorry for the poor guy. And Mr. McHugh too.

Nice set up, nice punch line. If you'll pardon the expression.

	16-10-2002 16:31									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Havak suspending them from international competition might make them take it more seriously than they seem to have so far?

I'd vote for suspending them from international competition at 38 minutes into the second half of a Test with them leading by a converted try.

quote: Old tugboat is a much more physical player than Pat was.

Good, solid, reliable, very hard-working, not bad skills, lacks a yard.

quote: Incidentally I don’t know if he is injured but the lad we spent ages tempting from Hull RL over the summer – I haven’t seen him myself or heard his name in dispatches yet. More money well spent!!

Do you mean you lured him or tried to lure him?

	16-10-2002 16:33									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin In France, almost all the referees should receive an intravenous injection of "common sense" before the game starts, some would also be well advised to ingest a pill of "honesty".

*French referees, en masse, consult defamation lawyers*

	16-10-2002 16:59									#463
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quote: In France, almost all the referees should receive an intravenous injection of "common sense" before the game starts, some would also be well advised to ingest a pill of "honesty".

Said with real feeling there! Hope Finbar is wrong about the lawyers.

quote: I'd vote for suspending them from international competition at 38 minutes into the second half of a Test with them leading by a converted try.

Said like a true Aussie.

quote: Good, solid, reliable, very hard-working, not bad skills, lacks a yard.

Pat lacked a little for pace, but Rod is slower yet as you say.

quote: Do you mean you lured him or tried to lure him?

Courted, lured, signed and… have yet to use for first team duty.

	16-10-2002 18:13									#464
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Pat lacked a little for pace, but Rod is slower yet as you say.

I forgot to add that Kafer is - or was - a mighty fine play organiser. He - as much as Steve Larkham - was responsible for calling the shots at the Brumbies.

quote: Courted, lured, signed and… have yet to use for first team duty.

Did he have a rugby background? How's he doing in the 2s?

	16-10-2002 18:17									#465
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I think we all need to vote for the next thread title, we only have 35 posts left!

I vote for Rugby - The Ball's Out!

My second choice is Havak's "Coming in from the side"

	16-10-2002 19:03									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I think we all need to vote for the next thread title, we only have 35 posts left! I vote for Rugby - The Ball's Out! My second choice is Havak's "Coming in from the side"

Rugby - The Ball's Out! is OK for me !

What about Rugby - On your feet! Wait! Wait!

	16-10-2002 20:58									#467
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quote: there's a part of the game in which absolutely no one really knows what's going on

When you play in the front row, there are many more parts of the game in which you have no idea what happened. Like when you rise from one scrum to another one and ponder which three quarter knocked on the ball.
About what is going on, here is a small excerpt from "The Bluffer's Guide To Rugby" (shown here for academic purposes, so it should be OK with copyrights):

quote: (...)William Webb Ellis (...) invented Rugby Football. William caught the ball while playing football and ran at his opponents with the ball in his hands. Even today most rugby players haven't a clue about the laws of the game they are playing, either.

At certain levels, that remark also holds true of referees.

I still prefer "Rugby - Last feet!". I yet have to hear a scrum half taking the time to shout "The ball is out". "OUT!" would be more usual, or out left/ out right. Rugby - The Game with 1001 Laws would be nice too, although I may underestimate the number.

	16-10-2002 22:53									#468
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare When you play in the front row, there are many more parts of the game in which you have no idea what happened. Like when you rise from one scrum to another one and ponder which three quarter knocked on the ball. About what is going on, here is a small excerpt from "The Bluffer's Guide To Rugby" (shown here for academic purposes, so it should be OK with copyrights): At certain levels, that remark also holds true of referees.

Unfortunately, this is also true when you are in the stadium as a spectator. This is even more true when you are in front of your TV screen as you don't have any general view of what is going on, moreover the cameraman is too often focused on the ball and its bearer.

quote: I still prefer "Rugby - Last feet!". I yet have to hear a scrum half taking the time to shout "The ball is out". "OUT!" would be more usual, or out left/ out right. Rugby - The Game with 1001 Laws would be nice too, although I may underestimate the number.

Rugby - Tales of the One Thousand and One Laws

Or,

Rugby - One game to rule them all (...) and in heaven bind them

	17-10-2002 05:38									#469
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I think we all need to vote for the next thread title, we only have 35 posts left! I vote for Rugby - The Ball's Out!

I'd vote for it too. It's definitely arcane enough.

	17-10-2002 05:39									#470
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Rugby - Tales of the One Thousand and One Laws

If the computer keyboard had the infinity symbol on it you'd be closer to the truth.

	17-10-2002 05:42									#471
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I yet have to hear a scrum half taking the time to shout "The ball is out".

In the SH, anyway, you most often hear it from the ref.

	17-10-2002 09:49									#472
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I yet have to hear a scrum half taking the time to shout "The ball is out". "OUT!" would be more usual, or out left/ out right.

We yelled that all the time in our games, but it was mostly the pack or one of the back line who could see the ball, not the scrumhalf. On that not though, try getting a scrumhalf to do anything useful

	17-10-2002 10:25									#473
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Rugby - One game to rule them all (...) and in heaven bind them

That gets my half a vote.

	17-10-2002 10:34									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Bearcat On that not though, try getting a scrumhalf to do anything useful

Spoken like a true flanker!

	17-10-2002 10:35									#475
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon That gets my half a vote.

Half? There you go flattering yourself again.

	17-10-2002 12:33									#476
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Half? There you go flattering yourself again.

Oi! I'll have you know I made a decent winger back in high school ... well, at least when the ground was dry enough for me to keep my feet ... which, considering the conditions under which most NZ matches are played was about one game in ... ... erm, nevermind. Forget I said anything.

	17-10-2002 13:06									#477
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quote: I forgot to add that Kafer is - or was - a mighty fine play organiser. He - as much as Steve Larkham - was responsible for calling the shots at the Brumbies.

He is on a dual contract with us – player and backs coach.

quote: Did he have a rugby background? How's he doing in the 2s

At schoolboy level I understand. And sadly I don’t know – the extras play Monday nights and I generally have other things to do. I know a few lads who attend though so I’ll find out.

Rugby – The Balls out is kushdy by me.

quote: Like when you rise from one scrum to another one and ponder which three quarter knocked on the ball.

Super stuff LdiCesare! The forwards lament we should call it?

quote: At certain levels, that remark also holds true of referees.

Again excellent stuff – who could disagree?

The Webb Ellis story is, of course, and urban myth. Were you aware in the early days of the game it was as a popular with the British working classes as it was with our social elite? Webb Ellis was retrospectively singled out as the ‘creator’ of rugby some twenty years after the event as part of a concerted effort by the elite to reserve the game for the ‘right kind of people’. There is not tangible proof Webb Ellis had anything to do with it at all – his name was seemingly arbitrarily picked out by the then headmaster of Rugby school who was a gentleman who felt very strongly that ‘Oiks’ should not be allowed to play the game.

It worked spectacularly well and hamstrung our game until the 1990s!

Have I mentioned how much I hate the class system here?

quote: This is even more true when you are in front of your TV screen..

Plus TV is a 2D medium. It’s very hard to tell any offsides on it for instance. Unless it’s an Australian team playing.

One game to rule them all…that’s almost sig material.

And as for all this positional rivalry I always thought that if you weren’t in the tight five engine room you didn’t really matter.

	17-10-2002 13:45									#478
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Oi! I'll have you know I made a decent winger back in high school ... well, at least when the ground was dry enough for me to keep my feet ... which, considering the conditions under which most NZ matches are played was about one game in ... ... erm, nevermind. Forget I said anything.

You'd be hard pressed to find a damp ground in Perth. I'd suggest a comeback.

	17-10-2002 13:51									#479
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quote: Originally posted by Havak He is on a dual contract with us – player and backs coach.

Promote him to the England camp. They don't seem to have a backs coach.

quote: It worked spectacularly well and hamstrung our game until the 1990s!

Yes, one of the great cons of all time. There was a splendid piece on the Ellis myth in that History of Rugby doco.

quote: Have I mentioned how much I hate the class system here?

Yes, but feel free to vent your spleen at very great length. It will be a post with which I will find no fault!

quote: And as for all this positional rivalry I always thought that if you weren’t in the tight five engine room you didn’t really matter.

Ah ... the lament of the front rower. Only you've used a four-syllable word in there, Havak, I suspect you're a tight-head imposter!

	17-10-2002 15:20									#480
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quote: Promote him to the England camp. They don't seem to have a backs coach

I think Woodward handles this role himself now. I’m sure that explains quite a lot?

I think after RWC we may well go shopping for both key playing and coaching talent from yourselves and the Kiwis. Personally I will have a side bet with you that if we do very badly in RWC Woodward falls on his sword and Dean Richards and John Wells take the England helm – Rod will have a real chance of being backs coach then.

The double on that bet would be Martin then taking over at Tigers.

quote: Yes, one of the great cons of all time. There was a splendid piece on the Ellis myth in that History of Rugby doco.

I’m sure I saw it last year. It nicely blew apart the constructed history didn’t it?

I’ve also got a book of Rugby’s strangest stories that amongst other things reveals that for their first few decades the Welsh rugby team consisted almost entirely of English middle class professional types studying or working in Wales. Something of a gem that I threw about in Cardiff a little last May.

quote: Yes, but feel free to vent your spleen at very great length. It will be a post with which I will find no fault!

Risking a red card – the entire concept of superiority through birth is so ridiculous only the Brits could still cling to it at all. Why oh why did they ever let Charles II back in (note – I understand it was a fatal mistake by parliament to try and let ‘Tumbledown ****’ Cromwell succeed his father in the heridatary fashion they had fought to get rid off!). Instead of letting him back in we should have started dropping the aristocracy into the Channel (since pre-Plantagenet times over 90% of them are in purchased heriditary titles – so much for genetics and their argument that their ancestors were battle commanders or ‘great people’ – most were just merchants who saw opportunity when various ‘Henrys’ needed funds to raise armies).

Phew – that makes me feel better even if it bored you guys to tears.

quote: Havak, I suspect you're a tight-head imposter!

Not at all – I’m just an edumacated man.