15-10-2002 07:38									#421
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Rugby - Havak & Finbar : Commonwealth Wars

	15-10-2002 08:20									#422
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When are these games coming up? Next month?

	15-10-2002 08:52									#423
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Yep.

Nov 9. Australia -v- Ireland; New Zealand -v- England

Nov 16. Australia -v- England; New Zealand -v- France

Nov 23. Australia -v- Italy; New Zealand -v- Wales

	15-10-2002 12:42									#424
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quote: I thought he had already been fined. From those quotes you provided I dont think he really deserves to be.

He hasn’t been cited so far for ‘dis-repute’. I should point out, despite my quote marks, I actually paraphrased him. Finbars sig is the accurate quote.

quote: Colourful, to say the least.

Lets see what he is like on this tour.

quote: If you're using the same brand of logic that says if a team constantly flubs a 3-man overlap situation then it must be coached by an Englishman, you're probably right

Oh in some ways I read the game very well.

English = dubious ability to maintain running rugby style or to have a ‘plan B’.

Aussie = absolute ‘professionalism’ and an inability to stay on their feet for five seconds.

quote: Your interpretation is benign in the extreme.

I back my clubmates. Isn’t that part of what rugger is all about?

quote: You can't attack (and I use the word in the technical sense) another player with the boot. It was obviously a penalty.

That’s true under the current laws – but it needs addressing. If a player can lie happily on the wrong side of a ruck without fear of this then rucks might as well be done away with surely?
Why no penalty for the man on the wrong side by the way?

I like Tamerlin’s title. Sorry Finbar but I think the lady behind HP has had enough recognition (and cash) for her silly kiddies stories. I would also offer Rugby – Havak and Finbar : blind to their own teams faults?
Wow the 16th Nov is tasty isn’t it? France to overturn the ABs on the same day England thrash the Wallabies. Luvvly Jubbly.

And Bearcat – Nov 23rd is also Eng-RSA as both the games Finbar listed are foregone conclusions!
All Englands games are 2:30pm GMT. Plan your viewing now.

	15-10-2002 13:11									#425
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Ugh... the Crusaders have a good warm-up for the Super 12 then England, Ireland and Italy...

FYI, the Canturbury Crusaders are basically the All Black domestic team. I hope you all knew that in Europe

	15-10-2002 16:04									#426
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quote: Originally posted by redbull Ugh... the Crusaders have a good warm-up for the Super 12 then England, Ireland and Italy... FYI, the Canturbury Crusaders are basically the All Black domestic team. I hope you all knew that in Europe

Welcome Redbull ! Yes, we know about the all Blacks, Caligastia and our respective national Rugby magazines are making no secret about this.

	15-10-2002 16:08									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Wow the 16th Nov is tasty isn’t it? France to overturn the ABs on the same day England thrash the Wallabies. Luvvly Jubbly.

A great day for european Rugby !

	15-10-2002 16:47									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Lets see what he is like on this tour.

It will be a big Bok test all round - coach and players.

quote: English = dubious ability to maintain running rugby style or to have a ‘plan B’. Aussie = absolute ‘professionalism’ and an inability to stay on their feet for five seconds.

quote: I back my clubmates. Isn’t that part of what rugger is all about?

Yes, until they do something despicable. Which hasn't happened in this case.

quote: That’s true under the current laws – but it needs addressing. If a player can lie happily on the wrong side of a ruck without fear of this then rucks might as well be done away with surely?

It does need to be looked at. If it happens down here - the same scenario - the ref penalises the booter and tells him not to do his (the ref's) job for him. The bootee gets a warning. Which is why it needs to be looked at.

quote: Why no penalty for the man on the wrong side by the way?

Well, it's like loitering, isn't it. It generally takes a lot of warnings before they're penalised. I suppose it's a matter of the ref deciding on the intent and, for the most part, too much benefit of the doubt is given, IMHO.

quote: I would also offer Rugby – Havak and Finbar : blind to their own teams faults?

But that would only be 50% accurate.

	15-10-2002 17:21									#429
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Hey Guys,
I was watching the Canterbury v Otago game this past weekend, and I heard one of the commentators suggest that maybe the rule that says you cant enter a ruck from the side should be scrapped. What do you guys think about that?

Canterbury won by 3 points BTW, so now the two NPC semi-finals are:

Auckland v Canterbury
Waikato v Otago

I think the final will be between Auckland and Waikato. Canterbury didnt look too flash against Otago, who Auckland thrashed last week. Waikato shouldnt have too much trouble beating Otago.

	15-10-2002 17:28									#430
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quote: A great day for european Rugby !

Simply to have both those sides in the NH at the same time makes it a great day – but both of us winning would be sweet.

Even if we do I’m sure the SH boys will tell us where we were not worthy in doing so.

quote: It will be a big Bok test all round - coach and players.

You were fairly impressed with their performance at home against the Wallabies if I recall? There is now a ‘mosquito squadron’ in the backs?

They will need their forwards to do the business against us big time before we see much of the girlies at Twickers I suspect.

quote: Yes, until they do something despicable. Which hasn't happened in this case.

I would hope, if I see something that truly meets that description, that I would condemn it of course. Even where players have got involved in silly 50/50 nonsense I won’t defend stupidity. I never argued at Austin’s yellow card against Bath – if you scuffle after the refs whistle you risk walking – period.

quote: I suppose it's a matter of the ref deciding on the intent and, for the most part, too much benefit of the doubt is given, IMHO.

I think we agree.

I suppose it is fair enough if the ref says “let me police the game” but it is human nature that if he then doesn’t do so the players will take it into there own hands. As long as the use of the foot is not excessively dangerous (i.e. aimed at the head) I feel the first infringement (being on the wrong side) should be punished first to be honest. When I started playing you knew if you lay on the wrong side you were going to get it – it concentrates one sense of geography marvelously.

quote: But that would only be 50% accurate.

True. We both know I can see the (few) faults in my teams.

If you open the door like that Havak will happily walk through it.

Allow entering the ruck from the side? No thank you!!! But before one explains how that would reward Finbar’s ‘lurker’ type of player how do you feel about it Caligastia?

When is the final – the ABs must leave NZ in the very near future?

	15-10-2002 17:42									#431
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Allow entering the ruck from the side? No thank you!!! But before one explains how that would reward Finbar’s ‘lurker’ type of player how do you feel about it Caligastia?

I dont think it would be a good idea, as it would make turnovers less likely to occur. This cuts down on competition for the ball, which would be a bad thing...

quote: When is the final – the ABs must leave NZ in the very near future?

The NPC final is on the 26th, so I assume that leaves enough time for the All Blacks to make it to europe.

	15-10-2002 17:57									#432
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To be honest I think you have nailed it there.

The ABs first game is us on the 9th November so there is ample time by the looks of it.

	15-10-2002 18:07									#433
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Yeah, and if Canterbury dont make it to the final, most of them can leave early anyway.

	15-10-2002 18:17									#434
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Hey Guys, I was watching the Canterbury v Otago game this past weekend, and I heard one of the commentators suggest that maybe the rule that says you cant enter a ruck from the side should be scrapped. What do you guys think about that?

Defeats the whole purpose, I'd've thought. Might as well throw off-side out the window. You'd have 'em coming from everywhere.

	15-10-2002 18:23									#435
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Defeats the whole purpose, I'd've thought. Might as well throw off-side out the window. You'd have 'em coming from everywhere.

Yeah, it sounds pretty messy. Dont know what the guy was thinking to be honest. Perhaps he would still penalise for entering from an offside position...even so...

	15-10-2002 18:33									#436
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You were fairly impressed with their performance at home against the Wallabies if I recall? There is now a ‘mosquito squadron’ in the backs?

Very dangerous in broken play. Greased lightning.

quote: They will need their forwards to do the business against us big time before we see much of the girlies at Twickers I suspect.

Their forwards were much vaunted. We seemed to handle them. As you say, they will need to do the business for the mosquitos to get involved. I do look forward to seeing how they approach the games - whether they're still carrying on with the mindless roughhouse stuff and giving away silly penalties.

quote: I suppose it is fair enough if the ref says “let me police the game” but it is human nature that if he then doesn’t do so the players will take it into there own hands.

That's why they do it. Apart from evening up a couple of old scores.

quote: As long as the use of the foot is not excessively dangerous (i.e. aimed at the head) I feel the first infringement (being on the wrong side) should be punished first to be honest. When I started playing you knew if you lay on the wrong side you were going to get it – it concentrates one sense of geography marvelously.

It's chicken and egg stuff. The guy shouldn't be lying there, the opponent shouldn't boot him for lying there. Obviously the guy lying there is the cause of the problem. The simple solution is to penalise the offside, but, as with lurking (on their feet), refs seem loathe to decide there's intent. It's like the requirement for the tackler to roll away from the tackle. That's not well enough policed. The list is endless.

quote: If you open the door like that Havak will happily walk through it.

I like to leave you the occasional crumb to keep your spirits up.

	15-10-2002 18:35									#437
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Perhaps he would still penalise for entering from an offside position...even so...

But you're offside if you come in from the side. Maybe the commentator had wandered in from a L***** match.

	15-10-2002 18:38									#438
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The new thread title. I'm still rather fond of the wonderfully technically obscure:

Rugby - Last feet!

That would certainly attract the stickybeaks. As long as they don't post!

	15-10-2002 18:42									#439
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quote: Originally posted by finbar But you're offside if you come in from the side. Maybe the commentator had wandered in from a L***** match.

I mean offside as in really offside, like entering from the opponent's side of the ruck.

Ok never mind...

	15-10-2002 18:44									#440
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The new thread title. I'm still rather fond of the wonderfully technically obscure: Rugby - Last feet! That would certainly attract the stickybeaks. As long as they don't post!

I like that one.

What about Rugby - Havak and finbar, a match made in heaven.

	15-10-2002 19:24									#441
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quote: I was watching the Canterbury v Otago game this past weekend, and I heard one of the commentators suggest that maybe the rule that says you cant enter a ruck from the side should be scrapped. What do you guys think about that?

The old law allowed you to enter if you came from behind the ball. That led to lots of confusion, and the ball can still be fought for. The current law makes it easier to maintain possession of the ball actually, as once it is won, you have a much smaller area to defend (the center of the ruck, not the sides). It makes play more fluid, and if you want to have forwards fights you can still use the maul, which is much better than a ruck for that anyway, so I say keep the law. I may end up being offside a bit more often than before, but that doesn't matter.

And I like "Last feet" too.

	15-10-2002 19:30									#442
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare The old law allowed you to enter if you came from behind the ball. That led to lots of confusion, and the ball can still be fought for. The current law makes it easier to maintain possession of the ball actually, as once it is won, you have a much smaller area to defend (the center of the ruck, not the sides). It makes play more fluid, and if you want to have forwards fights you can still use the maul, which is much better than a ruck for that anyway, so I say keep the law. I may end up being offside a bit more often than before, but that doesn't matter. And I like "Last feet" too.

Great post. You make some good points.

So it looks like we are leaning towards the "Last Feet" thread title. What do the rest of you think?

	15-10-2002 19:37									#443
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quote: Very dangerous in broken play. Greased lightning.

Hmm. That might cause us problems certainly.

quote: whether they're still carrying on with the mindless roughhouse stuff and giving away silly penalties.

Neither would be sensible against England. The forwards won’t achieve anything with the rough stuff and Wilko will punish any penalty leaking. Hopefully they will play open attractive running rugger.

quote: It's like the requirement for the tackler to roll away from the tackle. That's not well enough policed. The list is endless.

That’s true enough. Also though I think the ‘holding on’ directive this season is over strict – refs are blowing before players get any chance to lay it back some times.

quote: I like to leave you the occasional crumb to keep your spirits up.

It’s appreciated.

quote: I mean offside as in really offside, like entering from the opponent's side of the ruck

There speaks a true Kiwi.

Hmm not sure on that one.

Rugby – Havak and Finbar: behind the back foot?

	15-10-2002 19:49									#444
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quote: Originally posted by Havak There speaks a true Kiwi.

quote: Rugby – Havak and Finbar: behind the back foot?

I liked Tamerlin's "Commonwealth Wars" one better.

	16-10-2002 04:01									#445
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Hey Guys, I was watching the Canterbury v Otago game this past weekend, and I heard one of the commentators suggest that maybe the rule that says you cant enter a ruck from the side should be scrapped. What do you guys think about that?

This time I agree with SH commentators, I think this rule should be scrapped, in my own opinion this new rule has not clarified any part of the game and is thus a failure.

Havak, scrapping this rule will have an advantage for the Tigers, Franck Tournaire will cost your team less points.

	16-10-2002 04:49									#446
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare The old law allowed you to enter if you came from behind the ball. That led to lots of confusion, and the ball can still be fought for. The current law makes it easier to maintain possession of the ball actually, as once it is won, you have a much smaller area to defend (the center of the ruck, not the sides). It makes play more fluid, and if you want to have forwards fights you can still use the maul, which is much better than a ruck for that anyway, so I say keep the law.

Good points, well made.

quote: I may end up being offside a bit more often than before, but that doesn't matter.

But I have it on good authority that you've never been offside in your life, LDiCesares.

	16-10-2002 05:11									#447
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Hmm. That might cause us problems certainly.

As I observed at the time, they're so dangerous in broken play because, apart from being terifyingly quick, they seem, literally, to make it up as they go along. It's like that old arcade game where you have a mallet and you have to bop things on the head as they pop out of holes randomly.

quote: Neither would be sensible against England. The forwards won’t achieve anything with the rough stuff and Wilko will punish any penalty leaking.

That's precisely what happened to them here. They had racked up something like 5 penalties in the first 7 minutes.

quote: That’s true enough. Also though I think the ‘holding on’ directive this season is over strict – refs are blowing before players get any chance to lay it back some times.

That arose in the SH this season, too. The problem, again, is that it boils down to the ref's judgement. There's no time factor - you have X seconds to present the ball - so the decisions become arbitrary. The bottom line is that the breakdown - by its very nature - has always been the most contentious part of the game and probably always will be. The bothersome thing here is that there are certain refs whom you know are more likely to err in things like "holding on". They're also the ones who produce the most arcane, borderline technical rulings elsewhere on the paddock. 'Tis a pity one can't legislate for common sense in refs.

	16-10-2002 05:18									#448
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I liked Tamerlin's "Commonwealth Wars" one better.

As much as I'm flattered by the notion of an eponymous thread title - as I'm sure Havak Potter is too - my preference would be to stick with the wonderfully unique, obscure rugby laws and expressions. And the more obscure the better. We know what they mean and no one else does.

So I officially propose:

Rugby - Last feet!

Or:

Rugby - Roll away!

Or:

Rugby - Numbers in the lineout!

	16-10-2002 05:22									#449
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin This time I agree with SH commentators, I think this rule should be scrapped, in my own opinion this new rule has not clarified any part of the game and is thus a failure.

I scent un complot français.

	16-10-2002 06:07									#450
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Rugby: The Ball's Out!