17-10-2002 17:01									#481
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think Woodward handles this role himself now. I’m sure that explains quite a lot?

Does he? How odd. Most teams have specialists these days. One of the Ellas - I forget which - is our backs coach. Which reminds me - I'd totally forgotten that Tim Lane (ex-Wallaby assistant coach) has been looking after the Boks backs for the last year or so. Very talented, the Australians were sorry to lose him. I suspect he's had a big hand in their improvement in the backs - or, at least, the shift from the dependence on hulking packs. I also gather he's led the push for the smaller, speedy backs.

quote: I think after RWC we may well go shopping for both key playing and coaching talent from yourselves and the Kiwis.

The English game seems to be heading in that direction anyway, so you might as well.

quote: Personally I will have a side bet with you that if we do very badly in RWC Woodward falls on his sword and Dean Richards and John Wells take the England helm – Rod will have a real chance of being backs coach then.

What would you consider a failed campaign? Which stage - minimum - would they have to reach for you to consider it successful?

quote: I’ve also got a book of Rugby’s strangest stories that amongst other things reveals that for their first few decades the Welsh rugby team consisted almost entirely of English middle class professional types studying or working in Wales. Something of a gem that I threw about in Cardiff a little last May.

I remember something to that effect in the doco I saw. It was repeated recently and I completely forgot to watch it.

quote: Risking a red card – the entire concept of superiority through birth is so ridiculous only the Brits could still cling to it at all.

Frankly, the whole notion makes me want to commit murder. The ABC here has just finished running a series called The Edwardian House. It probably ran there a while ago. An Edwardian household was recreated in its class-structured entirety with Edwardian working and living conditions. I couldn't watch the first ep because it made me so angry. I actually ended up finding it fascinating watching the 21st century people trying to deal with the appalling - downstairs - situation. Which isn't to say I became any less angry with the upstairs situation.

quote: Not at all – I’m just an edumacated man.

Fair enough. So these days you'd be lining up in the backs in the Vets Comp?

	17-10-2002 18:25									#482
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quote: Originally posted by Havak One game to rule them all…that’s almost sig material.

Can I change my vote?

We all seem to be ok with "Balls out", but I think I like "One game to rule them all" better. Does anyone mind if we use that instead? We could still use "Balls out" for another thread later on...

	17-10-2002 19:09									#483
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quote: Does he? How odd. Most teams have specialists these days

He only took in on when Brian Ashton left earlier this year.

Thanks for the tip on Tim Lane. If the Bok backs look okay we might want him ourselves.

quote: The English game seems to be heading in that direction anyway, so you might as well.

And curiously the two most successful sides of recent years have English coaches and a strong English player base – even if Gloucesters roster still has too many of Saint Andre’s foreign legion in place.

It’s clubs like Saracens that lost the plot – great player roster – no team spirit whatsoever.

quote: What would you consider a failed campaign? Which stage - minimum - would they have to reach for you to consider it successful?

Anything less than semi-finals would be abject failure I think.

quote: . I couldn't watch the first ep because it made me so angry

I couldn’t watch it at all for similar reasons. The artificial social structures so loved by the Victorians and Edwardians leave me cold.

And etiquette – as long as I am polite no one tells me exactly how to address another mammal. I’ll never get a knight hood you know.

quote: Fair enough. So these days you'd be lining up in the backs in the Vets Comp?

Well the team would have to be desperate but yep I could fancy a loiter on the wing. As long as they don’t expect any running. Or tackling.

Go with your call Caligastia – we expect you to remember them all for later use anyway.

	17-10-2002 20:23									#484
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One game to rule them all is quite nice.
I think Woodward might even need a final. I still remember how Berbizier managed to get France in half final in South Africa, where the match was lost for reasons I won't comment, and the poor Berbiz', who had managed an excellent record with his teams (2 victories in 2 tests in NZ, a half final in the World Cup) was cast down by the powers that be. Now if Woodward has the favours of the English board, he might need only half-final.
I wonder if modern-era rugby will see coaches who last more than 4 years. We used to have the same coach for many many years long ago (Jacques Fouroux - until the federeation president got angry against him), but afterwardss they changed quite frequently.

	17-10-2002 21:45									#485
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Frankly, the whole notion makes me want to commit murder. The ABC here has just finished running a series called The Edwardian House. It probably ran there a while ago. An Edwardian household was recreated in its class-structured entirety with Edwardian working and living conditions. I couldn't watch the first ep because it made me so angry. I actually ended up finding it fascinating watching the 21st century people trying to deal with the appalling - downstairs - situation. Which isn't to say I became any less angry with the upstairs situation.

I agree with you, though it has produced one of the more fascinating piece of history this era had some inhuman features, considering someone as superior to the others because he is simply born in the right place at the right moment is absolutely unbearable. But where is the difference when you consider those born nowadays in a rich family with political and financial power? The main difference is that the so called superior ones are not usually claiming it overtly.

The living conditions are far better today but the social gap between the upper classes and the lower ones is getting more and more important. The same can be said about the educated and the uneducated or the backs and the forwards...

As far as France is concerned any result other than a won Final would be considered as a failure.

	18-10-2002 04:41									#486
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Can I change my vote? We all seem to be ok with "Balls out", but I think I like "One game to rule them all" better. Does anyone mind if we use that instead? We could still use "Balls out" for another thread later on...

Sorry, I think The Ball's Out is far superior. It's pithy, intriguing, and continues a theme we've established.

	18-10-2002 04:57									#487
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That makes it 4 votes "One game to rule them all" and 2 votes "Balls out". (Im assuming Bearcat would vote for his own suggestion)

	18-10-2002 05:09									#488
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Thanks for the tip on Tim Lane. If the Bok backs look okay we might want him ourselves.

He's just been appointed coach of the Cats for the 2003 S12 season. I suspect that's the first step on the road to coaching a national team, though which one would be the interesting question.

His departure for SA left the Wallabies with more than the obvious problem. He knew all the Wallaby plays and their codes. The codes all had to be changed.

quote: Anything less than semi-finals would be abject failure I think.

Fair enough. Makes the pool matches very, very interesting.

quote: I couldn’t watch it at all for similar reasons. The artificial social structures so loved by the Victorians and Edwardians leave me cold.

As I say, despite my fury, I managed to find interesting behavioural things along the way. The most interesting was the unmarried sister of the wife of the head of the household. She was somewhere in her early 40s, a successful professional person in her 21st century life. In the Edwardian scheme of things, she was the spinster sister-in-law of the head of the household, which relegated her to virtual non-existence. She struggled with her role to the extent that she had to leave the house - and the series - for a little while.

quote: And etiquette – as long as I am polite no one tells me exactly how to address another mammal. I’ll never get a knight hood you know.

Arise, Sir Tight-Head!

	18-10-2002 05:23									#489
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin But where is the difference when you consider those born nowadays in a rich family with political and financial power? The main difference is that the so called superior ones are not usually claiming it overtly.

Yes, we have a different sort of class structure these days - haves and have nots - and I think it's much more dangerous than what went before. It is, I would venture to say, the basis of much of the "terrorism" that's plaguing the world.

Actually, I vividly remember the first time I set eyes on some of France's chateaux. I couldn't fathom why the Revolution hadn't happened sooner.

quote: The same can be said about the educated and the uneducated or the backs and the forwards...

Tautology!

quote: As far as France is concerned any result other than a won Final would be considered as a failure.

The pressure is already building. I suppose there's something to be said for being a Namibia supporter - just running onto the field for a group match will amount to a massive achievement.

	18-10-2002 05:24									#490
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia That makes it 4 votes "One game to rule them all" and 2 votes "Balls out". (Im assuming Bearcat would vote for his own suggestion)

Where were the votes counted? Florida? Which way did the hanging chats fall?

	18-10-2002 05:28									#491
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I wonder if modern-era rugby will see coaches who last more than 4 years.

I doubt we will. Professionalism has brought with it so many demands, such need to stay one step ahead and, consequently, so much pressure.

	18-10-2002 05:50									#492
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Where were the votes counted? Florida? Which way did the hanging chats fall?

I agree. I demand a recount!

	18-10-2002 05:55									#493
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Fine, "Balls out" it is.

	18-10-2002 06:50									#494
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Thanks, Jeb.

	18-10-2002 07:09									#495
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Where were the votes counted? Florida? Which way did the hanging chats fall?

Who said the decision of a referee is never to be contested ?

	18-10-2002 07:11									#496
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Actually, I vividly remember the first time I set eyes on some of France's chateaux. I couldn't fathom why the Revolution hadn't happened sooner.

I think they did not had the weapons yet!

	18-10-2002 07:45									#497
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Who said the decision of a referee is never to be contested ?

The skipper's allowed to query a referee's decision.

*finbar hurriedly takes a vote amongst himself and discovers he's been elected Thread Skipper but wonders who abstained*

	18-10-2002 07:47									#498
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I think they did not had the weapons yet!

Sticks and rocks and a box of matches didn't exist in France in 1789?

	18-10-2002 10:38									#499
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Just watching the NPC 2nd Division Semi-Finals, and a thought cam accross my mind. In leagues around the world, how big a gap is there between the 1st and 2nd divisions in this day and age of TV broadcasting?

	18-10-2002 12:01									#500
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How does TV coverage enter into it?

	18-10-2002 12:03									#501
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500!





Sorry. Couldn't resist.

	18-10-2002 13:41									#502
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quote: Now if Woodward has the favours of the English board, he might need only half-final.

He seems to have the confidence of the RFU LdiCesare but as always only he and they know that for sure.

Your point is well made though – as Rugby has become more Professional coaches tenure has become shorter – and they are expected to take responsibility more. I fully expect Woodward to go of his own accord if we don’t reach the semi-final but I expect him to be ‘pushed’ perhaps if we don’t reach the final. Similarly I can’t see Jones survivng anything other than as Aussie win.

It’s not really fair – but it seems to be the reality of the game these days.

quote: though which one would be the interesting question.

To be honest I would always want our head coach to be English. I think it’s best to have a head coach from your own country? We have seen a prime example here where a successful foreign coach has failed spectacularly helming another country (and indeed my old friends the Lions).

quote: Fair enough. Makes the pool matches very, very interesting.

Well I want to see how the Boks perform in November but one has to remember they finished last in the tri-nations and, on both world rankings and recent years results (we have lost three matches in 24 months IIRC) we are the better side. I expect us to win the group – failure to do so would be a major surprise to me.

quote: She struggled with her role to the extent that she had to leave the house - and the series - for a little while.

It is interesting. It shows eloquently, that for all it’s faults, our modern societies (in Western democracies at least) have come a long, long way forward.

quote: Arise, Sir Tight-Head!

I have a feeling my former team mates would change that to Sit Tight-Arse – but that is a different story.

quote: Yes, we have a different sort of class structure these days - haves and have nots - and I think it's much more dangerous than what went before. It is, I would venture to say, the basis of much of the "terrorism" that's plaguing the world.

Well to be honest the Feudal system was based entirely on that system but your point is still valid because the have nots these days are generally well educated, well indoctrinated or well informed. Information is much more easily available than it has ever been and its harder for the haves to hide the comparative extent of their having.

quote: Actually, I vividly remember the first time I set eyes on some of France's chateaux. I couldn't fathom why the Revolution hadn't happened sooner.

And as you walk around AONB here – like the peak district – and see signs everywhere saying “keep off – property of the Duke of Westminster” – you wonder why we didn’t purge them too. I am not expounding that we should have repeated the massive excesses of the French revolution – but we should have dismissed the concepts of royalty and aristrocracy after the civil war. Both idea are, after all, so very 17th century don’t you think?

Mind you I like royalists – anyone cowed and stupid enough to argue in favour of their own oppressors are just the kind of people I like to meet (in debate or competition for business for example)

quote: The pressure is already building

I would expect the pressure on your guys is quite high Finbar. Lets face it the LCD fans expect them to win it right?

quote: Fine, "Balls out" it is.

Yellow card and 10 metres Fibar – back chat to the ref!

quote: The skipper's allowed to query a referee's decision.

But not dispute it, which is what you did.

In any case the skipper should always be a forward – and surely that means it is me?

I certainly didn’t abstain btw – I voted against you. Nothing personal – it just seems to be instinct to vote against the Australian.

	18-10-2002 14:57									#503
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Similarly I can’t see Jones survivng anything other than as Aussie win.

Not sure about that. Of course it depends on how badly they fail if they fail. There's no one waiting in the wings at this stage.

quote: We have seen a prime example here where a successful foreign coach has failed spectacularly helming another country (and indeed my old friends the Lions).

I think it depends on the quality of the coach - by which I mean, his qualities as a person as well as the rugby side of it.

quote: Well I want to see how the Boks perform in November but one has to remember they finished last in the tri-nations and, on both world rankings and recent years results (we have lost three matches in 24 months IIRC) we are the better side. I expect us to win the group – failure to do so would be a major surprise to me.

I'd agree that November will be the test for them. They played damn well against us in SA. They have a lot of young talent mixed in with some experience.

quote: I am not expounding that we should have repeated the massive excesses of the French revolution –

Why on earth not?

quote: but we should have dismissed the concepts of royalty and aristrocracy after the civil war. Both idea are, after all, so very 17th century don’t you think?

Yep.

quote: Mind you I like royalists – anyone cowed and stupid enough to argue in favour of their own oppressors are just the kind of people I like to meet (in debate or competition for business for example)

I've never seen so many people in need of chins as monarchists.

quote: Yellow card and 10 metres Fibar – back chat to the ref! But not dispute it, which is what you did.

Dang NH rules interpretations again!

quote: In any case the skipper should always be a forward – and surely that means it is me?

Sorry, son, we'd be twenty minutes into the first half before you'd worked out which was heads and which was tails.

quote: I certainly didn’t abstain btw – I voted against you. Nothing personal – it just seems to be instinct to vote against the Australian.

Re-read the line. I took a vote amongst myself and someone abstained.

PS. Hurry up and start a new thread, Cal!

	18-10-2002 15:19									#504
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quote: Not sure about that. Of course it depends on how badly they fail if they fail. There's no one waiting in the wings at this stage.

Sometimes this doesn’t seem to matter. When Jack Rowell was booted, um, sorry left the role Woody was not the first one asked by any means. There was no obvious successor at that time – but I sometimes find Crown princes are entirely the wrong choice anyway?

quote: I think it depends on the quality of the coach - by which I mean, his qualities as a person as well as the rugby side of it.

Well certainly in the case I cited he failed both tests I think. If you alienate your senior players you might as well quite to be honest.

quote: I'd agree that November will be the test for them. They played damn well against us in SA. They have a lot of young talent mixed in with some experience

SMH Dads army quips aside, so do we.

As you well know Twickers is not South Africa. It is in many ways the acid test for whether they can take a good showing on the road. The same reasoning is behind us playing warm up games with yourselves next year.

quote: Why on earth not?

Because I don’t believe we should kill people for erroneously believing they are superior by birth. True justice would be to confiscate their wealth and possessions and make them live on income support (which can be withdrawn if they refuse several minimum wage job offers). Then we would see just how ‘superior’ they are.

quote: I've never seen so many people in need of chins as monarchists.

Cracking line there – I may borrow it (reasonable rates?)

quote: Dang NH rules interpretations again!

The fourth official is a Kiwi, appeal to him?

quote: Sorry, son, we'd be twenty minutes into the first half before you'd worked out which was heads and which was tails.

But think of the fun I would have continually flipping the oppo captain until I could work out which end was which.

quote: Re-read the line. I took a vote amongst myself and someone abstained.

Whoops! That’s what I get for speed reading at work.

New thread time!!

	18-10-2002 15:48									#505
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quote: Originally posted by Havak but I sometimes find Crown princes are entirely the wrong choice anyway?

Often the case. But back to Eddie - he's had a season and a bit. By this time next year it will be two seasons and a bit. Hard to know what would happen if they don't win.

quote: Because I don’t believe we should kill people for erroneously believing they are superior by birth. True justice would be to confiscate their wealth and possessions and make them live on income support (which can be withdrawn if they refuse several minimum wage job offers). Then we would see just how ‘superior’ they are.

Can't we confiscate their wealth, make them live on income support, take it away from them, then kill them?

quote: Cracking line there – I may borrow it (reasonable rates?)

Gratis to retired tight-heads.

	18-10-2002 16:54									#506
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Well to be honest the Feudal system was based entirely on that system but your point is still valid because the have nots these days are generally well educated, well indoctrinated or well informed. Information is much more easily available than it has ever been and its harder for the haves to hide the comparative extent of their having.

You are right about information, this why I have talked about the educated and the uneducated. Access to information is useless if you don't have the means to understand it. Unfortunately, the lower classes don't have the necessary education to read between the lines and analyze information, they are too occupied struggling to make a living. The "noble" aristocracy has been replaced by a "money" aristocracy, what is really curious is that in Europe many influential families have a "de" or "Von" somewhere in their names...

quote: Both idea are, after all, so very 17th century don’t you think?

It reminds me the title of a song called "Westminster Babylon"...

quote: Yellow card and 10 metres Finbar – back chat to the ref!

Let me summarize the gentle and fair attitude of the crowd : Boooooooh !

quote: But not dispute it, which is what you did.

BOOOOOOOOH !

quote: In any case the skipper should always be a forward – and surely that means it is me?

I have always been convinced the skipper should be the Scrum Half or the Fly Half, one vote for LDiCesare (if I'am not wrong about your position on the field LDiCesare).

	18-10-2002 17:04									#507
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Can't we confiscate their wealth, make them live on income support, take it away from them, then kill them?

Can I help ?

	18-10-2002 17:34									#508
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quote: Hard to know what would happen if they don't win.

Is Graham Henry still free?

quote: Can't we confiscate their wealth, make them live on income support, take it away from them, then kill them?

I’m against anything that lessens their duration of having to live their new lives to be honest – but I’ll bow to your wishes on this, given I'm outnumbered.

quote: Gratis to retired tight-heads

I like that price!

quote: in Europe many influential families have a "de" or "Von" somewhere in their names...

Yes – ‘of’ generally occurs in the same cases here - and sometimes 'de' still interestingly enough. It’s a give away for pure muppetry from the person concerned.

Finbar asserted many moons ago Scrummy is the best position for captain. And this was before Gregan helmed the Wallabies I think - back in one of the earliest threads I ever crashed? Oh happy days eh?

It’s a good point but I always preferred second rows – generally they stand the best chance of getting the front row to listen, plus the girlies out back always do what they say (or else).

Now where is Caligastia to change the thread?

	18-10-2002 18:09									#509
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Continue here guys:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=64911