03-02-2005 13:04									#1711
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's hard to stay "in" the game after waiting a solid month last summer with no turns played. Maybe for some people that is time to plan every move, staying keyed up until their turn comes. Maybe for others it is a formula for inattention that leads to errors. Add, in my case, working overtime and stretching my sleepy head to make the 72 hr deadline for my turn.

Yes, Civ2 isn't made for PBeM and we use some tools to make it work better. The idea of hexedit for the unfreeze is not that it is a cheat, but that it is convenient. Consider:

1. We wait a couple days for each player to have the time to play, and now we wait again for each to replay the turn.
2. Hexedit and go on. ST loses one turn's move for the unit, nobody else suffers.

	03-02-2005 23:04									#1712
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quote: Originally posted by Kull So Germanos - deep breath my friend - as someone who grew up in the third world (bangla desh, thailand, brazil), your trip to syria will get you up close and personal to people whose daily life is full of unbelievable hardships (seeing it on TV is NOT the same thing, believe me). In the midst of that, you'll look back on these frustrations and smile. Because, after all - repeat after me - "see #1"

It's not the first time I go there
I was once sort of forced to stay there for 18 months (long story) and had to jobhunt if I were to eat. I even survived operation 'Grapes of Wrath' in Lebanon (no, not as a combattant). It's amazing how the sound of AAA resembles a jackhammer when it wakes you up in the morning
But (or should I say: so) I agree with you on the futility of a game like this. Maybe it is even the cause of my displeasure?

@ Straybow: don't feel too bad about the wondershield episode. I voiced my opposition to it then, and I fully stand behind both the reasons I put forward in support of my case, as well as my decision to allow such a thing for once.

As far as replaying goes: given the time it took to fix your wondershields, I doubt hexediting is quicker then replaying.
As far as I'm conceirned, if SlowThinker would just have posted a new save saying he forgot to unfreeze a unit, it would most probably have resulted in me posting a turn within 24 hours.
As Slowthinker has posted both then and now, he would have to do research to find out how to fix the problem that arised. That doesn't sound like an easy solution to me.
Being hexediting a cheat or not can be debated, but both you and me would probably agree that it will depend on the circumstanses. Just as using the cheat-mode to fix the problems we have experienced could very well NOT be cheating, as a specific use was agreed upon.

@ LaFayette: Thanks for your words, I interprete them as positive. (=you feeling sorry I lost my joy in playing this game)
As far as my understanding of English goes, your current phrasing expresses a negative tone. Maybe the english speakers on our team can tell both LaFayette and me how to express us better.
(or maybe I'm plain wrong and "I feel sorry for you" doesn't have a negative connotation?)

	04-02-2005 01:06									#1713
	Full PM-box? Change here!

This game has been a lot of fun for me, so it's hard to imagine quitting. I hope you will think it over, Germanos. For now, let's start playing again !!

Also, I hope that I never become the final authority on English. I live in South Florida, where English is becoming a dead language. But IMHO -

"I pity you" has a negative tone.

"I am sorry about your decision" has a more positive tone, and that' s probably how most of us feel.

"I feel sorry for you" is in between - usually slightly negative. But from the context, I think La Fayette meant it in a positive way... he can clarify this if he wants.

	04-02-2005 01:50									#1714
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quote: Originally posted by germanos As far as replaying goes: given the time it took to fix your wondershields, I doubt hexediting is quicker then replaying.

To clarify this:
I was little bit afraid from hexediting Straybow's shields, but finally I found Civ2Admin was well prepared for that - so it took about 1 hour. IIRC 7 people would have to replay so I think it was a good job.

Determining the way how to hexedit the barter took about 3/4 hour of work (a test was most time consuming). IIRC it is the byte 58H that determines turn and must be upped by +1.
Now a hexedit of a barter would be 1 minute of work for me and little bit more for a man who doesn't have a hexeditor ready.
( BTW the most slow thing for me is the CivDip itself. It is incredibly slow on my PII 233 MHz machine.)

Yaroslav should simply omit the turn-check for unfreezing barters. But I am afraid he has no time to correct bugs in CivDip now.

	04-02-2005 04:06									#1715
	Remove this text

If I understand Peaster's lesson:

I am sorry about Germanos' decision

(since this is a game (Kull's lesson #1) and we are supposed to have fun playing it).

Of course I hope he will change his mind, but I can do no better than cross my fingers.

	04-02-2005 15:30									#1716
	Remove this text

Hey guys,

this is just a message to let you know you made the right decision. I can't keep playing this game. Even if things change in the future (like an internet access at home), I doubt It'll be possible. Keep up the good work and let this PBEM continue until the game is over.

Up the Irons

	05-02-2005 23:22									#1717
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Yeah, sometimes I sit in front of this computer and think, "What good is this doing anybody?" I haven't been to a 3rd world country but I've been on service missions to place in the US that are comparable. Kinda puts things in perspective even 20 years later.

quote: As Slowthinker has posted both then and now, he would have to do research to find out how to fix the problem that arised. That doesn't sound like an easy solution to me.

Shhh, be quiet. Let him work, it keeps him out of trouble.

	06-02-2005 00:05									#1718
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quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel Hey guys, this is just a message to let you know you made the right decision. I can't keep playing this game. Even if things change in the future (like an internet access at home), I doubt It'll be possible.

Thanks for the update Stefan - it was great having you onboard!

quote: Keep up the good work and let this PBEM continue until the game is over.

I have a feeling some of us might be passing this on to our children.......

	07-02-2005 18:47									#1719
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

germanos, did you notice I posted the replayed Babylonian turn?

	08-02-2005 22:26									#1720
	Increase Your PM Length

I have a severe case of the flu. I slept most of the weekend, and I seem unable to concentrate for more then 30 minutes. Then bed beckons.

edit: managed to finish up.

Last edited by germanos on 08-02-2005 at 23:20

	08-02-2005 23:22									#1721
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Operation ‘locust’ launched.

Offensive operations started against Babylon. Principle aim of the assault on the treacherous Babylonians is to secure the Assyrian investments made in Babylonia (during the early years of SlowThinkers reign) that have been nationalized by the Babylonian King one piece at the time.
The initial push has brought our glorious forces victory and significant ground was gained. The Assyrian armies will not hold until vital Assyrian interests are secured.

Attachment: assyria_b2840.net
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	08-02-2005 23:28									#1722
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker (an example: only germanos was against looking at the saves of an ally, and it was accepted (I suppose) ( for the meantime, I may open the case if I get an ally)). An apparent(?) conclusion: hexediting is agreed .

Both wrong:

hexediting is not allowed. Exeptions could be agreed upon.

Looking at allies saves is not allowed. There is no equivalent in the regular (vanilla) game, neither in SP nor in MP. I see no reason why we should intruduce this.

	09-02-2005 02:23									#1723
	germanos a steady player? Suffering from ads?

germanos, I hope the war mean you decided to stay in the game

I suppose you wouldn't go in war as a temporary player. (Similarly we asked Peaster not to do such serious things when he was a Persian sub)

	09-02-2005 02:26									#1724
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Both wrong: hexediting is not allowed. Exeptions could be agreed upon.

I only quoted your words...
It is good to see you agree now

quote: Originally posted by germanos Looking at allies saves is not allowed. There is no equivalent in the regular (vanilla) game, neither in SP nor in MP. I see no reason why we should intruduce this.

But it is your opinion only.
I agree that there is no equivalent in the SP and MP and so it should be agreed with a consensus only ... but this is my opinion only.
But there is no rule about it that would be agreed on.

	09-02-2005 02:31									#1725
	the Assyrian attack Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

During the last night three groups of sleeping(!) Babylonian customs officers were massacred! We got a message from the Assyrian King that only a caravan nearby were left alive and will (would? debeest is not here...) have 1 turn to get to safety. What a magnanimousness!

A Babylonian pronouncement
We ask other Kings to think about a far future.
Assyria is the very strongest Empire in he world. It is clear now its final goal is to overrule all the world.
Babylon is not very strong and it cannot resist very long without an outside help.
Imagine how will a good Asyrian strategist continue: he knows Assyria is extremely strong, but it is not stronger than all the rest of the world. So he must take one civilization by one. Assyria will destroy Babylon, in the meantime it will try to worsen relationships with Persia. After getting a pretext (he must come up with another trick than sending a horse in Persia and let it be killed) he will destroy also Persia. Now Assyria is safe from eastern side and can throw all forces south or west...and so on...
Kings, you can be timorous, then you can stay safe now but you will be eaten later. Or you can agree on a wide anti-imperialistic alliance and the Assyrian threat will be destroyed once and for all!

	09-02-2005 03:04									#1726
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I will be mostly out of home from approx. this Saturday to end of March. I will have a notebook and an occasional access to Internet. But I will answer your messages sparsely (once per week or so).

So try to conduct most of diplomacy next three days please.

	09-02-2005 03:39									#1727
	Re: germanos a steady player? Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker germanos, I hope the war mean you decided to stay in the game

Great attitude, ST !!!

	10-02-2005 00:20									#1728
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Hittite mages have discovered a mysterious scroll with the following written upon it:

quote: Ferengi Rules of Acquisition 34. Peace is good for business. 35. War is good for business.

	10-02-2005 07:00									#1729
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Operation ‘locust’ launched. Offensive operations started against Babylon. Principle aim of the assault on the treacherous Babylonians is to secure the Assyrian investments made in Babylonia (during the early years of SlowThinkers reign) that have been nationalized by the Babylonian King one piece at the time. The initial push has brought our glorious forces victory and significant ground was gained. The Assyrian armies will not hold until vital Assyrian interests are secured.

It seems scarcely credible that the honorable High King of Assyria would embark upon a war against his southern brother without a most excellent reason. Therefore, in the spirit of harmonious international relations, Pharoah implores him to lay his case out in full before the eyes of all the world.

Additionally - no matter how justified the attack - there must be limits to this "Operation Locust". Surely the King of Assyria does not envision a serious alteration of the "Balance of Power" - specifically the acquisition of cities and territory?

Pharoah passes no judgement here - but feels certain his Brother in Nineveh can understand the Egyptian desire for more information.

May the Rays of Ra enlighten thy mind,

Ramesses II

	10-02-2005 10:25									#1730
	Remove this text

Pharoah states the thoughts of the Persians well. Both Babylon and Assyria have acted honorably towards our nation, and we are reluctant to take up arms against either. But it is hard to see the justification for this attack and hard to see where it will end.

We endorse Pharoah's requests, and also ask King Didanu to expand on -

"The Assyrian armies will not hold until vital Assyrian interests are secured."

Do Assyrian interests include attacks on Babylonian cities, or crossing Babylonian borders, for example?

	10-02-2005 15:36									#1731
	Inflate your Upload Space

I may have problems with my e-mail, so please ask me if I don't respond.

	10-02-2005 20:43									#1732
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My dear ally wrote that: "war is good for business",

but any war is not good for business with the Hittite-Minoan alliance, especially since we all know that the Assyrian leader is bloodthirsty.

Therefore:
- one more Assyrian attack against Babylon = no more Assyrian caravan welcome to any Minoan city;
- if no more Assyrian attack, then:
a) one Assyrian caravan welcome once the Hittite caravan safely delivered to Assyria,
b) no more Assyrian caravan welcome until ALL Assyrian units withdrawn from Anatolia

	10-02-2005 23:20									#1733
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quote: Originally posted by Kull It seems scarcely credible that the honorable High King of Assyria would embark upon a war against his southern brother without a most excellent reason. Therefore, in the spirit of harmonious international relations, Pharoah implores him to lay his case out in full before the eyes of all the world. Additionally - no matter how justified the attack - there must be limits to this "Operation Locust". Surely the King of Assyria does not envision a serious alteration of the "Balance of Power" - specifically the acquisition of cities and territory? Pharoah passes no judgement here - but feels certain his Brother in Nineveh can understand the Egyptian desire for more information. May the Rays of Ra enlighten thy mind, Ramesses II

There is really not much more to say then I have allready done:
Assyria has invested in Babylonia in the early years of SlowThinkers reign, when the country was devastated by the rule of CivFan and his courtisane Alinestra Incontinentia. Units, maps, Caravans and technologies were send south. Some came as gifts, some items were asked for by the Babylonian King, and rich rewards were promised.
As soon as the Babylonian Kingdom was lifted from it's isolation, the erosion of the King's promises set in. Requests became demands, and the Babylonian King didn't shun extortion. Thus ended the golden age of Mesopotamian Friendship. That was ages ago.

Assyria and Babylon peacefully coexisted for centuries to follow, until Assyrian scouts were massacred in Babylonia, and extensive talks on a cease-fire failed. A final Assyrian offer was rejected (and a very fair one at that: Assyria would not gain anything and Babylonia would not loose anything) and then the threats started again: Babylonia would end it's payments on the investments of the old days.
Assyria then told Babylon we would descent on him like locusts on green fields of barley if he would fail to pay his dues.

Nevertheless, King SlowThinker decided to suspend his payments. Now we have come to collect them for ourselves.


I will not disclose to Pharaoh or anybody else where we will seek our compensation for the nationalized Assyrian investments, as that is a highly clasified militairy secret, but Pharaoh fears for a shift in the balance of power between Babylonia and Assyria will likely be true:
the Assyrian investments have been very large.



Summary for King Minos:
This will not have been the last attack on Babylon. We will sail clear of your ports and head further west.

	12-02-2005 02:03									#1734
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

As usual, phrasing of my dear old (I think very old now?) friend Didanu is very unclear and indefinite. I had always problems to get clear statements from him and his ancestors...
So let us be more concrete now:

quote: Assyria has invested in Babylonia in the early years of SlowThinkers reign, when the country was devastated by the rule of CivFan and his courtisane Alinestra Incontinentia. Units, maps, Caravans and technologies were send south. Some came as gifts, some items were asked for by the Babylonian King, and rich rewards were promised.

Gifts: several decades ago I got a list of Assyrian gifts to Babylon, I responded which I consider as real gifts and which not and sent back a similar list. But I suppose this is not a problem since Assyrians are not Indians.

When Babylon had Civil Service and Assyria Land Trade we agreed DiploSystem (DS) will be built in Babylon with an investment of 2 Assyrian caravans and 4 Babylonian caravans. Since Babylon invested more caravans, the original deal was Assyria would get all info from DS each 3rd turn, but Babylon was very happy and offered the info each turn.

Since Assyria seemed to be little bit unclear with its statements, several turns later Babylon insisted that a clear agreement is written. Here it is:

quote: Territory - Babylon won't move units in Assyrian sparse settlement (not only city perimeter) without Assyrian permission (for example caravans). Assyria won't move units in Babylonian settlement and in Babylonian east territories (east from the Eufrat/Tigris area, south from the 50th parallel) without Babylonian permission. Diplomacy system - info goes from DS for Assyria. Will be stopped only if assyria starts war against babylon. Land Trade - Assyria has copyright to this tech (Babylon can't pass it further without an agreement) Civic Planning and The Beak are mutual Caravan passage - using roads: aprox. 20% of estimated total gold, payed upon entry. Short off-road crossing of your territory is free of charge. Our foreign diplomacy is independent. Mutual tech: m. tech may be used for any diplomatic exchange only if both civs agree. Any tech that arises from this tech become mutual too (otherwise we would fight who will exchange it faster), a non-tech profit (for example gold if tech is 'sold') is divided.

There were also other promises added later besides of the main deal: Babylon won't send info about Assyria to other kingdoms. Assyria accepted a Bab city on a concrete position between Babylon and Asyria.

quote: the erosion of the King's promises set in.

Can you be more concrete, my dear neighbour?

quote: Requests became demands, and the Babylonian King didn't shun extortion.

Can you be more concrete, my dear neighbour?
Do you mean this?
I tried to convince current Assyrian King (Imsu? immortal have sometimes problems with their memory) to a very deep collaboration in technologies, and I told him otherwise I would be tempted to maximize use of the DipSys which could head that his main opponents would be strengthened. The Assyrian King blamed me for it, I think he felt DS is something like "common" thing. But this is not true, use od DS were a part of clear agreements that I always kept.

quote: Assyria and Babylon peacefully coexisted for centuries to follow, until Assyrian scouts were massacred in Babylonia

I think this story were talked enough already and everybody can see how credible may be other parts of Assyrian explanation if Assyrian King depicts the Assyrian penetration this way. Explanation for Persian King: Assyrian King asked me if he can get position of Babylonian cities. I suggested to swap maps but he preferred scouts. I agreed although I said I would prefer a map swap. Suddenly I found out that the plan is my scouts cannot enter Assyria, only Assyrian units will enter Babylon. Because Assyria need to know trading oportunities. I refused and sent detailed info about position, size, and arrows of cities suitable for trade. Then Assyrian boat and horses were caught in Babylon. Babylonian ambassador was drunk and laughed when I protested.
This was first time when the agreement (as quoted higher) were broken (Assyria won't move units in Babylonian settlement and in Babylonian east territories (east from the Eufrat/Tigris area, south from the 50th parallel) without Babylonian permission.). Still Babylon continued to keep it.

quote: A final Assyrian offer was rejected (and a very fair one at that: Assyria would not gain anything and Babylonia would not loose anything)

Which one? Can you be more concrete, my dear neighbour?
Do you mean that after the incident with horse you pronounced you stopped to respect Babylonian borders? Including the ground for planned Babylonian city between Babylon and Assyria? And I agreed that lands between Kish, Larsa, Kurigalzu and Arraphka will be considered as disputable and I will postpone any city founding there? And I proposed only non-stacked skirmishers will be allowed there to avoid a sneak attack? And you disagreed and you conditioned cease fire by an approval that any armies will be allowed in territory between Assyria and Babylon? And I had to disagree? And I was surprised why do you set requirements for a cease fire even if a cease fire is an instrument that is normally used without any initial requirement and before talks?

I am really prepared to make our correspondence from that time public.

quote: then the threats started again: Babylonia would end it's payments on the investments of the old days.

Do you mean that after you again and again refused to explain where your units move / intend to move in Babylonian territory I announced I decided to return to our original deal of the DS info only each 3rd turn? I agree I broke the written deal now but after you broke it first with the horsemen and after any promise you wouldn't continue in penetrations or any explanation if you penetrate with other units currently.
I think you appreciated you don't deserve the info each turn since you wrote:

quote: If you keep this up (explanation: Assyrian King means 'hold off the info') for a considerable time, I will insist you pay me back on the investment I made for the Wonder.

So in 2870 I sent the info and announced it will be each 3rd turn only, in 2840 I sent it again and I was attacked immediatelly...

Anyway I don't understand why you attacked without warning, just after I sent the last collection of info from Diplomatic System? If you thought I did wrong something concrete why didn't you asked me about it?

	12-02-2005 02:36									#1735
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I will not disclose to Pharaoh or anybody else where we will seek our compensation for the nationalized Assyrian investments, as that is a highly clasified militairy secret

I would be interested what could Assyria get from Babylon since all Babylonian cities may be destroyed only. Except Assyria thinks I collected techs from all you other civs and Assyria will get them . Or Assyria thinks I will take some important techs now so that I can defend better. I must inform you Babylon will accept no tech that is not in posession of Assyria simultaneously.

	12-02-2005 02:38									#1736
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This is a picture of situation before the attack. Roads, bab units inside of borders, roads, city sizes are not shown.
This message was sent to Assyrian King:

quote: Esteemed neighbour, we kindly ask your boat near Kish moves back outside of the line of Babylonian patroling units. Also we are expressing our opinion that stacking units in the borderline doesn't help to calm situation between our nations.

The attack was the answer.

	12-02-2005 02:39									#1737
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Situation after the attack, of course before the crushing Babylonian counter-attack

Attachment: after 2840.jpg
This has been downloaded 37 time(s).

	12-02-2005 02:43									#1738
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Next I will answer on Monday probably.
I think we needn't keep the 72 limit just now...(?) The diplomacy seems to be fun enough, doesn't it?

	12-02-2005 14:50									#1739
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

ST, I didn't turn to arms if I thought talking would bear fruit.
I'm not starting bickering with you again. Those times are gone.


I do dispute the frequency of DS-info that was granted to Assyria though:

Attachment: stmail.jpg
This has been downloaded 31 time(s).

	12-02-2005 21:12									#1740
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"I think we needn't keep the 72 limit just now...(?) The diplomacy seems to be fun enough, doesn't it?"

IMO the diplomacy is interesting, but we should not delay the game for it. At this rate, most players will have a month between moves for that.

Persia considers the Assyrian explanation vague, and inadequate to justify an attack. We stand ready to aid in the defense of Babylon.