10-09-2002 08:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I still want someone to acknowledge that 'watching the language' doesn't apply to this person while it applys to the teacher that taught their kids what 'niggardly' meant and if someone wrong 'Abolishing the Black Race'.

Who opposed the use of niggardly?

	10-09-2002 08:14									#92
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David -- I patiently await for your reply to my post.

	10-09-2002 08:15									#93
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quote: Who opposed the use of niggardly?

Carver for one. But there was a big hubbub about it.

	10-09-2002 08:18									#94
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quote: David -- I patiently await for your reply to my post.

I thought I did

	10-09-2002 08:26									#95
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I would like to see the idea of race relegated to the history books myself. There is no biological basis for it, and it is today mainly a confusing way to speak about culture without using the word culture. It is also of course used by the worst sorts of people for the worst sorts of purposes, namely to divide people who share the same political space along cultural - familial lines like it was used by Milosevic until very recently and is being used by Mugabe now.

It seems a very simple thing to destroy this bogus concept that dare not even use it's real name lest it give away too much of it's own power. Let's simply stop using it. There is no need to destroy anything. Useful distinctions like culture can be simply called culture. Heritage can simply be called heritage, and men and women can simply be called men and women. There is no need to force everyone into a few ill-fitting categories in order to fulfill some promise made when most people actually believed in the idea of race. There is no reason whatsoever.

Why destroy anything at all? The author of the piece is talking out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand he says that we can simply starve the concept of the white race to death in a relatively peaceful revolution, and on the other he talks of bashing everything that smacks of "whiteness". This is because this author is conflicted between his intellectual side that sees to at least some extent what a bankrupt concept race is, and his emotional side which is still addicted to the attention that making outrageous statements and picking fights has gotten him throughout his life.

A quick look at his history as a Marxist union organizer (with an arrest for throwing a paint bomb at a member of the proletariate who failed to show the proper zeal for the revolution) in the United States tells us all we need to know about his need for conflict and attention. Now he has moved on to greener pastures, and at least as of the 1990s there are no pastures any greener than those of a white radical in a black studies department. In my opinion this man's opinions as reflected by the article don't say anything new or particularly useful as conflicted as they are, though his use of inflammatory language does recommend him as a mediocre to moderately successful academic troll should there ever be a shortage to be filled.

	10-09-2002 09:07									#96
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I thought I did

Yep -- you did.

Where's a DOH smilie when ya need one?

	10-09-2002 09:15									#97
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If I said I was more comfortable around whites, and thus I would only hang out with white people, would you see a problem? Would you blame anyone besides myself for this attitude?

Of course not -- there are black students in some classes of mine, and I chat with them. But I have not yet made any friends with them -- the ones that I have befriended so far, are white (ok -- one Asian student too).
So does mean that I have racist tendency? Probably not.

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd For example....?

Example of a behavior involving sub-conscious racism, would be if you saw a lone black man at night, outside, approaching from the opposite direction, and you cross the street.
Then the next night, you see the same occurence, but this time he's white, and you merely pass him by on the same side of the street he is on.
Both persons lets say, have the same similar clothing and walked in the same casual demeanor.

That is sub-conscious racism.

	10-09-2002 10:48									#98
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I completely agree with Sikander. Race is an anachronism.

	10-09-2002 11:03									#99
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Sikander is right that we would be better off without the illogical divisions of people into races, but I think the Harvard prof's point is that the concept of race is more than just a poor label.

For various reasons, being white in a western society provides benefits, and not being white incurs disadvantages. What we must do is destroy these advantages and disadvantages.

The prof is saying the key to this process is eliminating the priviledges of white skin.

I disagree with this claim, in the sense that I think there must be a united effort on both sides.

As Speer points out: "Some minorities see being successful as selling out your people or origins to become 'white'."

We need to get rid of that self-defeating attitude as well.

However, the destruction of these concepts is not easy and will take decades to achieve.

	10-09-2002 12:58									#100
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Interesting perspective from over here in South Korea...

It's a totally 'racially' homogenous society.

Japan is cosmopolitan by comparison.

Personally, I think that many American minorities have a persecution or victim thing going on to a large extent.

Real racial persecution looks different.

I can't think of a single instance of something being granted to me by 'white priveledge'.

	10-09-2002 13:02									#101
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Oh well.
Not much to add here that hasn't already been pointed out by those that read the article and realised what he was going on about.

He runs a magazine thing on the web:

http://racetraitor.org/

which is essentially more of the same thing.

	10-09-2002 13:33									#102
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Damn, gotta hand in my "White boy, get twice of everything for half the trouble" card.

The only thing I ever specifically got on account of my race was denied financial aid for college, on account of the fact that my parents who lived a thousand miles away and had nothing to do with my support made too much money, and since I was white, I wasn't entitled to any consideration of the fact that I was self-supporting and trying to go to college on *my* income. No biggie, in the long run.

I really have a hard time taking seriously anything from a Cambridge, Mass living liberal fop, especially having recently spent time there and seeing how rough the "intellectual elite" have it.

I wonder how he'd reconcile his views on "white privilege" after spending some time in cracker white shitholes like the coal country in West Virginia, and then going to yuppie havens out here where "race" is pretty much a non-issue among the moneyed crowd.

	10-09-2002 14:46									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker I can't think of a single instance of something being granted to me by 'white priveledge'.

But would you notice it?

The greatest "privilege" as a white in North American society is that you don't have to put up with much discrimation. The Native American applying for a job is routinely considered a suspect alcoholic, criminal or idiot. The white person is not. Many of my Black Canadian friends are routinely pulled over while driving their cars lawfully, something that doesn't happen much to my white friends. A white person who goes for a job never has to deal with the question of whether they were hired on merit or because of their skin colour. Whites are automatically treated as native born citizens, Chinese-Canadians are automatically assumed to be immigrants.

Whites, of course, do face racism, but I would say the vast majority of white people rarely encounter racial discrimination.

The prof is using aggressive language, but I suspect that most of us would agree with his basic concept that we need to get rid of these racial benefits.

The problem I have with this guy is his claim that:
"The existence of the white race [priviledges] depends on the willingness of those assigned to it to place their racial interests above class, gender, or any other interests they hold. The defection of enough of its members to make it unreliable as a predictor of behavior will lead to its collapse."

I think that is just mumbo-jumbo crap.

	10-09-2002 14:51									#104
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The only thing I ever specifically got on account of my race was denied financial aid for college, on account of the fact that my parents who lived a thousand miles away and had nothing to do with my support made too much money, and since I was white, I wasn't entitled to any consideration of the fact that I was self-supporting and trying to go to college on *my* income. No biggie, in the long run.

When I applied for a university student grant, I received about $30 (my family is lower middle class). I guess the only reason I got that money was because I'm Chinese-Canadian.

	10-09-2002 15:46									#105
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Semantic issue:

Lack of persecution should be the norm for a social group in a liberal society. (sounds romantic doesn't it?)

I don't see it as a 'benefit'.

We should eliminate actual, real discrimination.

I wouldn't call it destroying white priviledge (sp?), but guaranteeing normal rights, not a 'special benefit'.




The Author brought up an interesting issue:

The 'whitewashing' of ethnic minorities like Eastern Europeans, Irish, Italians, Polacks, etc. Time was, an Irish Catholic in Ontario faced widespread discrimination.

One might argue that 'Asian' people have 'made the journey' to 'good as white'.

What does that racist phrase 'good as white' mean? It seems to be purely economic!!

When the Irish and Italians moved into the suburbs, owned property, and paid a lot of municipal property taxes, they were 'good as white'.

Now, in areas of high Asian immigration, Asian immigrants have made a similar transition.

Is 'good as white' = racial equality? Not initially, it is a condescending, 'he thinks he's people' statement, isn't it? But gradually, in the case of Japanese, Chinese, Italian, and Irish, it seems to have become equality...?

For 'good as white' to become 'equality', does the ethnic group have to become more assimilated? Is that the price?

Seems to be. A 5th generation Italian or Irish Immigrant, because their skins are white, are accepted.

Even a 5th generation East Asian, despite external differences, are also accepted.

So 'blacks' are denied equality because of their* refusal, and maybe even contempt for, to assimilate to 'white' norms.

*Meaning by and large, in the USA, in big cities.

So what the heck are these cultural norms? Why are they in conflict? Which ones can we get rid of?

Is one of them a culture of victimhood? Is the other the still existing sense of unconscious superiority?

	10-09-2002 16:36									#106
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quote: Example of a behavior involving sub-conscious racism, would be if you saw a lone black man at night, outside, approaching from the opposite direction, and you cross the street. Then the next night, you see the same occurence, but this time he's white, and you merely pass him by on the same side of the street he is on. Both persons lets say, have the same similar clothing and walked in the same casual demeanor.

This isn't necessarily racism. If you are in a city, and you are aware of the fact that a higher percentage of blacks commit violent crime than whites, then crossing the street is valid, I would say, especially if you are female.

Would I personally do it? Well, if I did, I'd probably treat everybody the same - I'm not a fan of large urban areas and feel inherently unsafe when I'm alone at night. I have a lot of martial arts experience, and am not worried about getting jumped unless the other guy is armed. If I was carrying a concealed handgun I'd feel a little better, but again, you can't be too careful.

	10-09-2002 16:56									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Even a 5th generation East Asian, despite external differences, are also accepted.

Trust me, this is not true. East Asian are still treated quite differently than whites regardless of how long their families have been in Canada or how they behave.

quote: Originally posted by Seeker For 'good as white' to become 'equality', does the ethnic group have to become more assimilated? Is that the price? Seems to be. A 5th generation Italian or Irish Immigrant, because their skins are white, are accepted.

I don't know if that is necessarily true. The 5th generation Italian or Irish retain their religion and yet anti-Catholic sentiments have virtually disappeared in Canada. Many Italian-Canadians still retain cultural differences that set them apart from British-Canadians.

Economically, it could be argued that with income level there is no signicantly obvious differences between Italian-Canadians and Chinese-Canadians, and yet Chinese-Canadians still face racist attitudes while Italian-Canadians do not. The ability of a Chinese-Canadian to achieve a high level in a corporation is likely less than that of non-English whites.

So we have two groups, both of which retain strong culture differences from the English-Canadian mainstream, both of which are roughly at the same economic level, and yet the two groups are treated differently.

This suggests that the difference is not due to economics or with how non-white people behave.

	10-09-2002 17:02									#108
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd This isn't necessarily racism. If you are in a city, and you are aware of the fact that a higher percentage of blacks commit violent crime than whites, then crossing the street is valid, I would say, especially if you are female.

It would be racism. You see a black person and you assume the person is a criminal, even though only a small fraction of the black population in the US have committed violent crimes.

As well, while it is true that violent crime within the US black community is higher than in the US white community, black- against-white crime rarely happens.

So the reality is, a white person faces more danger meeting a white person on a dark street than a black person.

The decision to cross the street is a racist decision.

	10-09-2002 17:14									#109
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quote: It would be racism. You see a black person and you assume the person is a criminal, even though only a small fraction of the black population in the US have committed violent crimes.

You can label it whatever you like, I'm just going to go ahead and call it valid safety precautions which again, I would do regardless of if the person was black, white, or purple.
If someone chooses to see that as racist because the person happens to be black, then tough ****. I care more about safety than someone's feelings.

quote: As well, while it is true that violent crime within the US black community is higher than in the US white community, black- against-white crime rarely happens.

Doesn't make me feel any safer being by myself on a dark street at night.
Hell, when I was in Washington DC last, I happened to be on the subway at 2 am by myself and I was scared shitless. Racist? No. Safety conscious? Yes.

quote: So the reality is, a white person faces more danger meeting a white person on a dark street than a black person.

A white person faces danger from anyone, I wouldn't say they face more from white people by any means.

quote: The decision to cross the street is a racist decision.

Again, call it what you like - in the end, it's a SAFE decision.

	10-09-2002 23:01									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Ron Jeremy, Carver: Hey, what's gonna happen to my "image" if I ever start making between $30,000 and $50,000 a year after taxes? Will I go from "oppressor" status to "mass murder" status due to lifestyle choices? Gatekeeper

I think that, regardless of your financial position, your status as "tosspot" will remain secure. Hold on to that rock of certainty, Gatekeeper! Cling to it!

Still paying off the college fees? You're going to shatter our cosy little worlds by revealing that recent graduates often don't have much money? Well stick a chopstick up my bum and call me "Betsy", college boy- that's the favourite hard luck tale of every comfortably-well-off-to-obscenely rich middle-aged white person.

But I digress. What you're disputing is just the degree of application. Nobody has disputed the crux of the article- that a white skin should not carry special privileges. Significantly, the objections to the destruction of the white race as a social construct (congenital advantage through race) aren't materialising either.

Still- thanks for the sob story about your finances. Ha, ha, ha. I suppose you can start a thread telling us unenlightened ones what the inside of a soup kitchen looks like, or how much you get for giving favours to burly Latvian dockers with hands like plates. In any event, I think we both doubt that the story will be similar in ten years time. Unless you're a bit simple, of course. Which looks distinctly possible.

Consider this, though. Are you saying that the social construct of the white race does not exist, or simply that you don't fit into it? Because, try as I might, I can't find any part of the article that says "this is true of all people with white skin". However if you're still unconvinced, just look at the numbers of CEO's of FTSE or Dow Jones listed companies who are black. Or mere directors, for that matter.

	10-09-2002 23:36									#111
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Well, Ron, Given that the Irish were not "immediately" white tells me that "whiteness," within the professors construct, is also about religion and national origin as well.

So, what the author really is talking about is the "in" group vs. the others as a general proposition. This could apply generally to any country. It is not specific to the United States or to race.

	11-09-2002 00:00									#112
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Congratulations, Ned. It's taken 5 pages of posts, but you're catching up.

	11-09-2002 00:21									#113
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well, I think we can all agree that :

a) People who live in a certain country shouldn't be treated differently because the colour of their skin.
b) People's skills have nothing to do with the colour of their skin.

However:

quote: Ignatiev in a blinding flash of insight saw that Melanotan could also abolish white skin itself and hence all the ills he saw in it. If all Caucasians were required to take Melanotan, this would be like giving all whites a race transplant operation. The same drug that in Australian experiments turned light-furred dogs and rats dark could turn every one of the world's whites into "people of color." Ignatiev picked up his telephone and volunteered to fly to Australia and become a guinea pig for the Monash University scientists. Six months later, looking into his mirror Ignatiev saw that his fondest wish had come true. He had shed the white skin that had made him hate himself so much.

	11-09-2002 00:23									#114
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Thanks, Ron, but it also means that all the author is doing is advocating "sensitivity" to these issues in private matters and equality of treatment under the law. I think we can all agree that both are desirable, not only for the US, but for the whole world.

But the way he does it is offensive.

	11-09-2002 00:23									#115
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I wonder if anyone would have paid any attention if the author had simply said, "Abolish Race!"

	11-09-2002 00:26									#116
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well, it certainly wasn't his point. He's ... well, I don't know what the hell is he doing. It feels like he really has something against white people. read my quote?

	11-09-2002 00:27									#117
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See what the tenure system gets you.

	11-09-2002 00:46									#118
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My other comment, however is, what do you expect from a Maoist?

	11-09-2002 00:46									#119
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It occurs to me that all this Harvard nutcase will succeed in doing is stirring up white supremacists to protect themselves from the new 'threat', as they might see it.

	11-09-2002 01:07									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Who opposed the use of niggardly? Carver for one. But there was a big hubbub about it.

Stop lying Imran. Show me a quote where I said I was against the use of niggardly. There is none, I never said it. Don't lie and don't misquote me.