11-09-2002 01:30									#121
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd And thousands of whites in Zimbabwe are the victims of insane and stupid land redistribution. And thousands of Christians (and other religions) in the PRC are persecuted for their faith. And how millions of Jews have been persecuted throughout history. But what exactly has that to do with blacks committing more crimes than whites?

You really need help. Blacks are disproportionally poor becuase of 300 years of stolen labor and denial of education, during which time white families accumulated wealth. Whereas it was a challenge for Blacks simply to not have the family property taken by theft, imminent domain, or intense taxation (which subsided after the property was "purchased" by whites).

quote: I guarantee you that having an official policy of no blacks allowed in a certain dorm would not be legal. But this still isn't the point. If I want my dorm to be all white, and enough other whites agree with me, should I be able to force the university to spend money and inconvenience themselves just to make myself more comfortable in that regard? I think not.

I've never seen any dorm that was "blacks only". There are Afro-centric dorms that focus on African-American culture but they don't turn people away based on skin color. Why don't you go join one? It would do you some serious good.

quote: Don't you think this is possibly because the average standard of living for whites has gone down?

No. The standard of living hasn't gone down. What kind of paranoid ramblings off the Stormfront website have you been reading? The difference is blacks make more money is South Africa now.

quote: So, even if the crime rate hasn't skyrocketed, then the current black government has proven itself to be incompetent to solve the crime problem, wouldn't you say?

The crime problem hasn't been solved but that doesn't idnicate incompetence. That just requires time.

quote: Ah, so much of the crime was black on black, you would say?

Yes it was. I really don't understand your obsession with this point - it doesn't back up your "argument" at all. With blacks locked out of the economy, denied access to good jobs, largely denied education ( and the ed that existed existed to teach the "Bantu" that they are inferior, according the apartheid SA's Min. of Ed.), with blacks unable to protect their real estate from seizure by whites this all led to economic depravation and desperation.

quote: as long as you don't act like you have a chip on your shoulder all the time and instead act like a reasonable and responsible person.

You, David, have a serious and large chip on your shoulder.

	11-09-2002 02:13									#122
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Azazel- that's a spoof article.

	11-09-2002 02:41									#123
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Oh. I was imagining him having all of that 'Michael Jackson' fame. how about a real article?

	11-09-2002 02:46									#124
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Im going to start a move in congress. Im SICK TO DEATH of being called "White/Caucusian" on the census and employment applications. I am German-Irish-Russian- American damnit. Serouisly I feel im being stereotyped. Im being oppressed.


Ya this guy should be assinated already.

	11-09-2002 02:49									#125
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What Ignatiev does is IMO even worse than "simple" race hatred. He connects colour of skin in the same way with privileges as Hitler did do when he told the rich that behind communists there are the Jews and told the workers that behind their exploiters are the Jews.
Try to rewrite the article in that sense. You'll see it will be worst Nazi propaganda.
Imagine the same article would have been written "Abolish black race". Giving black people the same "privileges" would be equivalent. But in this different way he would lose his post within days. Without anyone ever reading more than the headline.
I think this man is highly dangerous.

	11-09-2002 03:35									#126
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Well I didnt actually read the article, but I know what the man said from the excerpts and I've noticed that this thread is basically, people assuming racism and responding or people who FINALLY grasp the meaning of the article debating over minor, half-related points but I'll join in again...

anyway...

Carver:

quote: Blacks are disproportionally poor becuase of 300 years of stolen labor and denial of education, during which time white families accumulated wealth.

But you forget that most of the whites in America today came here post-emancipation. Most have ancestors from the late 19th century or even the first half of the 20th. Though legal discrimination existed during this time period until the civil rights movement, we're talking about only one or two generations between an immigrant's arrival and the true emancipation of blacks. I expect this situation will correct itself soon hopefully... and frankly, I think it wouldve been corrected back in the 80's if many blacks got their minds straight... crack came... weed usage started getting ridiculously common... teenagers got pregnant left and right... it's sad to think that all the accomplishments and dreams of Malcom X, Huey Newton, or Martin Luther King have degenerated into a cycle of perpetual lower middle classisms that would break if only blacks (and hispanics and whites for that matter) got their minds right and gave a damn.

A girl in my AP Govt class today told me that she was angry because the only black people in the class were her and another girl... Of course she dont blame this on any establishment racism but like she has said plenty of times, "She hates black people" because she sees plenty blacks not even trying. They just forget about all their ancestors had to deal with and fight for, and they just stop at half-way progress, not taking that extra step that would bring them to a higher plane, equal in all ways with everybody else.

This attitude is also prevalent among other minorities and even whites. People today just dont try. They dont give a damn. Unfortunately, the leftist liberal ideas that people (INCLUDING YOU!) espouse do nothing but further the belief that blacks (in their own minds!) and others must remain as second-class citizens eating scraps from the dinnertable where only the rich whiteys eat. What will cause all the people here in Philly for example to rise up is a return to the idea of morality. Don't do drugs; don't drink; don't have pre-marital sex... if these things were done by every person in Philly, in a generation, our problems would be mostly cured and we could progress onto a new, comfortable economic level.


Tingkai:

quote: A white person who goes for a job never has to deal with the question of whether they were hired on merit or because of their skin colour.

This is due to the LIBERAL agenda, you know... things like affirmitive action and quotas, while well-intentioned, result in this situation and further cause blacks to see themselves as nothing unless whites let them be something.


Dave Floyd:

quote: Well, if I did, I'd probably treat everybody the same - I'm not a fan of large urban areas and feel inherently unsafe when I'm alone at night

Seriously though... you shouldn't be scared. I've lived in Philly almost my whole life and I've walked through the worst parts of philly (North) plenty of times at night. If you saw the pics of my neighbourhood and you think that even that's bad, then I walk through here at night thousands of times... no problem. Being young males, you and me are the least likely target for a random mugging for the simple fact that there are old people and women who are less able to defend themselves. People our age die by the dozens only because of **** like gang wars and cause a lot of people put themselves specifically into danger. Just walking down the street means nothing. People outside of the cities are too paranoid. We don't got muggers hanging around every corner. Most likely, we just got crack smokers or potheads. If you dont cause trouble, no one will **** with you.


thanks

	11-09-2002 04:59									#128
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There may be something about growing up black in America as opposed to being black. I remember someone once saying (here or on the news) that Colin Powell, who could easily have been elected president if he chose to run, was not a good example of black Americans because his family recently emigrated from the Carribean.

The point I got out of that exchange is that Powell's expectations, both from his family of him, and his own, were no arbitrarily limited by a victim mentality.

I'd also like to know a little more about Rice. She is also extremely successful - but I am willing to be she is an "American" black.

	11-09-2002 05:13									#129
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quote: Show me a quote where I said I was against the use of niggardly. There is none, I never said it. Don't lie and don't misquote me.

You said the person should have used better judgment. Ergo you were opposed to the use of niggardly.

	11-09-2002 05:16									#130
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D'oh! Red X of Death!

	11-09-2002 05:22									#131
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While I studied in York, England, I had an English class led by someone who (in my impression) was a mixture of nearly everything in the world. He told us something about English people saying: "Of course you are not black". In the Carribean, where his family originated from: "Of course you are black". Black US citizens: "Of course you are black, but not really". In the end, he did do the best he could have done: take it with a lot of humour. Once he played theatre, a "black" person playing a noble Englishman... (I think our friend Ignatiev would have called him white).

From my part: I firmly believe there are differences between human groups (call them races or not, that doesn't matter humans group themselves). These differences are not necessarily superior or inferior, they are only in specific environments (the fact that the blacks didn't have a high culture that supported big cities can be explained solely by the fact that neolithicum is impossible in the jungle - the soil conditions dictate a (half-)nomadic life style. The Amerindians had a city culture where it was possible - in the Andes and in Mexico - and in the Brazilean Jungles they were hunters and gatherers). Genetically, diversity is one of the most valuable assets we have. Be proud of being white. Be proud of seeing a black, because he/she gives to humanity what you don't have - and vice versa. Don't abolish one of them. Respect each other. This is how to advance humanity.

	11-09-2002 06:18									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy I think that, regardless of your financial position, your status as "tosspot" will remain secure. Hold on to that rock of certainty, Gatekeeper! Cling to it!

I'm sorry, high and mighty one, would you speak plain English for us ordinary folks down in the valley?

quote: Still paying off the college fees? You're going to shatter our cosy little worlds by revealing that recent graduates often don't have much money? Well stick a chopstick up my bum and call me "Betsy", college boy- that's the favourite hard luck tale of every comfortably-well-off-to-obscenely rich middle-aged white person.

I'd rather shove a stick of dynamite up your ass, light the fuse and watch you burst into a crimson shower of ragged body parts. Oh, but hey, I digress.

I simply stated my position in life, nothing more, as a way of trying to figure out just how where I am in life now was by me being a white man. Insofar as I can tell, nobody's given me a break in life because I'm frickin' white. I've lost jobs. I've got loans to pay. I sure as hell don't live extravagently. I've gotten my ass pulled over by the cops while on the road. So, oh mighty one, where's the benefit my whiteness has given me?

quote: But I digress. What you're disputing is just the degree of application. Nobody has disputed the crux of the article- that a white skin should not carry special privileges. Significantly, the objections to the destruction of the white race as a social construct (congenital advantage through race) aren't materialising either.

A human is a human to me, regardless of color, ethnicity, religion and whatnot. What's important to me is the action a human takes in life, regardless of everything else. So, IOW, if we're all going to simply be human, fine. But that means destroying *all* race connotations, not just the "white" designation.

If the crux of the article is that having a white skin carries with it special privileges, I sure haven't seen it. Hence my posting of some of the things that has happened in my life (see above).

quote: Still- thanks for the sob story about your finances. Ha, ha, ha. I suppose you can start a thread telling us unenlightened ones what the inside of a soup kitchen looks like, or how much you get for giving favours to burly Latvian dockers with hands like plates.

It wasn't a sob story, jerk-off. It was an attempt — one you obviously missed, Mr. Ron Jeremy — to tie in the circumstances of my life to what the article was supposedly about; namely, all those damn advantages having a white skin gives a person.

quote: In any event, I think we both doubt that the story will be similar in ten years time. Unless you're a bit simple, of course. Which looks distinctly possible.

You like lacing your posts with veiled and not-so-veiled insults, don't you? Does make you feel smarter? Well, don't worry ... I've decided to adopt your writing style for the moment (ever since I began this response, actually) and reply in-kind to what you said directly above: YOUR MAMMA WEARS ARMY BOOTS! You do understand that, Ron, don't you? Unless, of course, "you're a bit simple."

quote: Consider this, though. Are you saying that the social construct of the white race does not exist, or simply that you don't fit into it? Because, try as I might, I can't find any part of the article that says "this is true of all people with white skin". However if you're still unconvinced, just look at the numbers of CEO's of FTSE or Dow Jones listed companies who are black. Or mere directors, for that matter.

More like I don't fit into it, yet at the same time I feel like I get caught in the scattershot blast from articles like this one.

And if the white male/female CEOs and whatnot are the target audience of this article, I sure as hell am not anywhere near that level of wealth or influence. But would I become a bad white man if, in 10 years time, my income goes up to around $50,000 a year or something? Is there a threshold between "working hard and earning your way up" and "being given everything to you on a silver platter?" I'm just curious because I know a number of white folks who started out working their butts off, during odd hours, and have worked their way up to better positions. All, from what I can tell, w/o having favors given to them due to their skin color.

Gatekeeper

	11-09-2002 06:53									#133
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The guy wanted noteriety. He got it.

	11-09-2002 08:25									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Show me a quote where I said I was against the use of niggardly. There is none, I never said it. Don't lie and don't misquote me. You said the person should have used better judgment. Ergo you were opposed to the use of niggardly.

First, you are making a HUGE assumptive leap with those two sentences you just wrote.
Second, I never said that teacher should have used better judgement. I don't think I said anything about that teacher at all. All I did was prod those that immeadiately thrashed the parent for even having a concern.
Third, just give it up. I never said anything that was any sort of conclusion about the use of niggardly.

bye bye

	11-09-2002 08:42									#135
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quote: First, you are making a HUGE assumptive leap with those two sentences you just wrote.

I don't think so at all. Saying that the word should be used more carefully is saying that the person should have watched their language.

And why did you prod those that trashed the parent for, as you say, having a concern? Because you felt that her concern was perhaps valid? Because you felt that the teacher was wrong in teaching that word?

I thought so.

	11-09-2002 09:06									#136
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd This isn't necessarily racism. If you are in a city, and you are aware of the fact that a higher percentage of blacks commit violent crime than whites, then crossing the street is valid, I would say, especially if you are female. Would I personally do it? Well, if I did, I'd probably treat everybody the same - I'm not a fan of large urban areas and feel inherently unsafe when I'm alone at night. I have a lot of martial arts experience, and am not worried about getting jumped unless the other guy is armed. If I was carrying a concealed handgun I'd feel a little better, but again, you can't be too careful.

In this case scenario, if you were to cross the street in BOTH instances, you would be following your instinct of safety if both wore the same clothes (gangster clothes).

But if you only crossed the street to avoid the black guy, you are doing so out of racism.
Does not mean you're the outright-KKK white supremacist kind, but most of us have a kind of racism in ourselves that we are probably not aware of, yet it leads to behavior that we usually do not stop and think about.

	11-09-2002 09:24									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: First, you are making a HUGE assumptive leap with those two sentences you just wrote. I don't think so at all. Saying that the word should be used more carefully is saying that the person should have watched their language.

You're still making assumptions instead of reading. I NEVER SAID THE WORD SHOULD BE USED MORE CAREFULLY.

quote: And why did you prod those that trashed the parent for, as you say, having a concern?

Because there is a pool of persons in American society that immeadiately thrash any minority person for raising any type of racial issue. I think race is something that needs to be discussed at times. Therefore I don't immeadiately attack someone personally (as was done here) for raising an issue - regardless of if I agree or disagree. Thus, I defend the idea that it is reasonable to raise a racial concern - again regardless of if I agree.

	11-09-2002 09:25									#138
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd A white person faces danger from anyone, I wouldn't say they face more from white people by any means.

I'm still trying to figure out what DF means by his first sentence. Is he suggesting that white people face greater dangers than non-whites? This is not true. Black Americans are more likely to be victims of crime than White Americans

As for his second sentence, in the US white people are more likely to be attacked by whites than someone who is not white, just as blacks are more likely to be attacked by blacks.

	11-09-2002 13:05									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai As for his second sentence, in the US white people are more likely to be attacked by whites than someone who is not white, just as blacks are more likely to be attacked by blacks.

I think the reasons for this have a lot to do with the fact that a large percentage of crime occurs between people who know each other (eg rape and domestic violence). Additionally a lot of the rest happens due to opportunity, and it's a lot easier to observe and prey upon people in your own neighborhood than to travel to a strange neighborhood and try to unobtrusively observe potential targets for your crimes. What I don't think happens much (if at all) is that a criminal of a particular race decides not to prey upon someone of another race due to their race. Thus David's point is valid to some extent. If blacks are more likely to be criminals than members of other cultural groups, and there is a black guy on David's side of the street and a Chinese guy on the other side, David will probably reduce his tiny chance of being robbed by crossing the street.

Statistics are useful, but sometimes they are difficult to interpret. On the street your own intuition is a lot more useful than racial profiling in any event. I have been attacked by Whites, Asians, Blacks and Hispanics, and I have been helped by members of each group as well, in some cases by people who I didn't know at all who took a risk by doing so. Decency transcends whatever racial or cultural distinctions we might erect. It pays to be open to the humanity (or open to the possibility of it's absence) of those around you rather than ascribing to them whatever attributes you tend to associate with those of their group. By racial profiling rather than using your intuition it is quite possible to travel from an imaginary frying pan on one side of the street right into a very real fire on the other. The scene in the pawnshop in Pulp Fiction springs to mind as a rather extreme example.

	11-09-2002 15:31									#140
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Not suprised that a person living behind a desk "theorizing" thru life would come up with something like this. Would not be suprised if he was leaning toward the left either. They seem to be indifferent to the value of human life. Just look at the indifferent reactions to Sep. 11. Good thing many of them in the Western world have little power. If they ever came into real power - be prepared for bloodshed. Learn the lessons of history.

	11-09-2002 19:43									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper You like lacing your posts with veiled and not-so-veiled insults, don't you? Does make you feel smarter? Well, don't worry ... I've decided to adopt your writing style for the moment (ever since I began this response, actually) and reply in-kind to what you said directly above: YOUR MAMMA WEARS ARMY BOOTS! You do understand that, Ron, don't you? Unless, of course, "you're a bit simple."

It's just a little object lesson, Gatekeeper. If you choose to make sarcastic posts, be prepared to receive the same, especially if you aim it at someone who loves a fight. Don't try to dish it out if you can't take it back.

Now work on that copy, because you're way off the mark. Get the demons out, boy! Do it for Jesus!

	11-09-2002 22:25									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer But you forget that most of the whites in America today came here post-emancipation.

That's not true. Almost half (40%) the US population is English or German stock. Toss in Irish and you have over 50% of the US poopulation, not merely the white population. The vast majority of the immigration from these groups is pre-emancipation.

Just a point.

	11-09-2002 22:35									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I have been attacked by Whites, Asians, Blacks and Hispanics, and I have been helped by members of each group as well, in some cases by people who I didn't know at all who took a risk by doing so.

Dude! How many times you get attacked!?! I've never bee attacked by anyone with whom I wasn't going to school. All my years of living in the worst parts of Chicago, I never once was attacked. And I was a pretty milk-toast looking white boy. After years of dood eating and waste length hair and a scruffy face, I now look like a biker ('cept fot the clothes I wear). The only tim I got into trouble was when I was really stupid (followed someone down an ally for a drug buy ), and I still wasn't attacked.

	12-09-2002 00:29									#144
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Che the biker

	12-09-2002 18:56									#145
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Ignatiev wants to get rid of the social construct of the "white race". What does he want to replace it with? The social construct of another race? A social construct based on all races except the "white" race? Whatever he is proposing, he is obviously implying that the "white" social construct is inferior to any other social construct.

His article is nothing more than pointless waffling mixed with a healthy dose of inflammatory language.

	13-09-2002 00:57									#146
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quote: I have been attacked by Whites, Asians, Blacks and Hispanics

Can someone please explain me why Hispanics should be a race?

	13-09-2002 01:04									#147
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I'll second that question. I don't seem to understand it either. What's that stupid definition??

	13-09-2002 01:38									#148
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I don't think it is a race within the meaning of the law. We ban discrimination based on national origin as well as on race. For example, Asian, within the meaning of the law, includes people from India. It is a geographical reference.

	15-09-2002 08:46									#149
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quote: Even a 5th generation East Asian, despite external differences, are also accepted.

funny, sometimes complete strangers talk to me... like.. this... in... a... very... loud... voice... because... i... might... not... under... stand... them...
or aski me about martial art, how they can fight and kick like asian man.

no, asians are discriminated against in all the small, underhanded ways, and we're pretty much stupid enough to take it. besides, it's not like anybody would listen to us, we're all assimilated and what not.

	15-09-2002 09:23									#150
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Family dynamics and peer pressure have a lot to do with how a person perceives the concept of "getting ahead". Yes, I've known families, black and white, where the children are directly dissuaded from putting in an effort to get an education or even work for a living. Sometimes this attitude comes from envy and resentment of people who have more money, and sometimes it's an expression of fear and feelings of helplessness. Sometimes rejection is a quick and dirty means of establishing a personal identity.