28-10-2002 11:21									#301
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Btw, a Horse empire spycam snapped this pic of Deity's spaceship taking off.

Attachment: challenger takeoff.jpg
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	28-10-2002 11:22									#302
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And here it is exploding only 2 years from Alpha Centauri after Horse army forces took Deity's capital

So near and yet so far

Attachment: challenger1tn.jpg
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	28-10-2002 11:25									#303
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OK Horsie

If I lose I will state here and now that I will not make any excuse. Fair enough?

As finbar said, we all have our points of view and can discuss rules and in the end democracy prevails in times of disputes but that's not the playing of the game. The game has played out in accordnace with your expectations. It's exactly as you wanted in the save. I stayed in the game. I accepted the ruling - no excuses. I was stupid to leave my cities undefended like that, regardless of my assumptions about the rules.

---

From this point on I'm only intersted in the general discussion about what are sensible rules for MP games but not related to this game.

For example, can you tell me why you don't like unit bribe and refuse to play games with unit bribe? What is your reasoning there?

	28-10-2002 11:33									#304
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quote: Originally posted by deity OK Horsie If I lose I will state here and now that I will not make any excuse. Fair enough? As finbar said, we all have our points of view and can discuss rules and in the end democracy prevails in times of disputes but that's not the playing of the game. The game has played out in accordnace with your expectations. It's exactly as you wanted in the save. I stayed in the game. I accepted the ruling - no excuses. I was stupid to leave my cities undefended like that, regardless of my assumptions about the rules.

That's what I thought too - at last agreement.
But it isn't "exactly" as I wanted because you weren't completely emasculated by a civil war and that is a big problem for me now - oh well, next time we'll know better

quote: --- From this point on I'm only intersted in the general discussion about what are sensible rules for MP games but not related to this game. For example, can you tell me why you don't like unit bribe and refuse to play games with unit bribe? What is your reasoning there?

Start another thread then please - I really don't think any of us are interested in discussing that here - its too divisive. This thread is for the game

Better to discuss all that elsewhere if you don't want people linking your hypothesising directly to the game play.

In fact, go and discuss it with those deadbeats you play diplo games with. They seem to love this sort of thing

	28-10-2002 11:35									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse edit You'll say someone broke the rules, there was a conspiracy against you, whatever other excuse you can think of to distract readers from your loss. You've got form, you've done it before

When have I done it before?

I've been is disputes where others have argued about rules but some have simply quit the game when they thought they were being robbed. This is how I felt in this game but I've stayed with it.

The only MP game I probably would have lost is where Dang and Markus 'co-operated' to get me. But I kept playing that one until it dissolved.

So how have I got form? I haven't had to argue or make excsuses about a loss situation for myself

	28-10-2002 11:47									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse edit... Start another thread then please - I really don't think any of us are interested in discussing that here - its too divisive. This thread is for the game Better to discuss all that elsewhere if you don't want people linking your hypothesising directly to the game play. In fact, go and discuss it with those deadbeats you play diplo games with. They seem to love this sort of thing

LOL!

So, it's OK to continue to have silly fun here but not OK to discuss serious game issues that have arisen from the current game?

I'm really interested to know your thoughts on unit bribe, please? Post in another thread if you are really worried about linkage!

---

Divisive? Civ is divis

	28-10-2002 11:54									#307
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For the sake of peace I'll withdraw that remark if you like. It isn't worth arguing over

But I have already instituted as host what I thought was a perfectly workable dispute settlement mechanism in the form of majority rule but every individual player being able to vetoe the majority if it is that important to them. This is a process often used in real diplomacy. I thought that was the process we used on city ceding and some other things like ship chaining.

You can in my view, subject of course to the views of others in the game, still override the majority by exercising your vetoe on city ceding if it offends you that much. I still have the save and I'll back you on that.

If however the players make a decision on controversial issues I think the game will be much more enjoyable if we all respect that decision and not play to the gallery by posting dissenting views here.

I actually hate rules disputes and I think I'm not alone in this group on that.

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 28-10-2002 at 12:30

	28-10-2002 12:20									#308
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quote: Originally posted by deity So, it's OK to continue to have silly fun here but not OK to discuss serious game issues that have arisen from the current game?

I love to comment on the state of play, including the very very occasional bit of sledging and trolling as you may have noticed

I'm not the least interested in discusson of "serious game issues". I'd much much prefer to just vote or vetoe, without having to give any reasons, and move on.

So called "serious" game issues always seem to end up in point scoring and slanging matches, with feeling sometimes getting hurt. This is not what I play for.

I don't think there are any "serious" issues anyway. Its just a game we play for fun. I leave the "serious" issues at the office.

quote: I'm really interested to know your thoughts on unit bribe, please? Post in another thread if you are really worried about linkage!

That's the point - I'm not interested in giving an opinion. I'd prefer to just vote and move on. And I think votes should be respected, people shouldn't have to give reasons and they should not be ridiculed for voting a certain way either. It shouldn't commented upon here.

quote: --- Divisive? Civ is divis

This is probably where we part company. I don't think it has to be divisive. I've played many many happy hours with makeo or finbar or Hydey without a dispute over game rules. We quickly find a way to agree and move on.

You like those diplo games where people will argue for 2 or 3 pages over one little border square. Its because they do that I don't play "diplo" games btw.

I have a busy job (believe or not). I deal with complex sometimes stressful issues all day. I don't want to repeat the dose when I play civ in the evening to relax.

	28-10-2002 12:39									#309
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I thought posting on apolyton was your job. its stressful but not that bad.

	28-10-2002 14:47									#310
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LMAO @ Makeo!

	28-10-2002 14:50									#311
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OK Horsie, it's on with the show. No hard feelings.

	28-10-2002 15:36									#312
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quote: Originally posted by Makeo I thought posting on apolyton was your job. its stressful but not that bad.

Your taxes at work

Okay D, that's good

Now you can kick my arse in that game

	29-10-2002 15:52									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse But it isn't "exactly" as I wanted because you weren't completely emasculated by a civil war and that is a big problem for me now.............

You better believe it

	29-10-2002 16:31									#314
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C'est le gare

	29-10-2002 17:12									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse C'est le gare

"It's the railway station" ... ? And a masculine railway station instead of a feminine one?

Mmmm. Anyway, that reminds me of my very first trip to France. I rang the hotel from the station. I said - in French - that I was at the station. The chap on the other end of the phone confirmed that I was at the war.

Of course, in French, la gare, which means the railway station, is pronounced gair. La guerre, which means the war, is pronounced ger. It doesn't pay to confuse them. Particularly, obviously, if you get into a taxi and think you're asking to be taken to the railway station. Next stop some hot spot.

	29-10-2002 17:22									#316
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Oh sh*t you are right

Maybe that's why people have looked at me oddly in Paris when I too have asked them to direct me to the nearest war

	29-10-2002 17:51									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Oh sh*t you are right Maybe that's why people have looked at me oddly in Paris when I too have asked them to direct me to the nearest war

SCENE: A Paris street

CAST: Horse, a Frenchman

HORSE: Pardon, Monsieur. Où se trouve la guerre la plus proche?

FRENCHMAN: Pourquoi?

HORSE: Imbécile! Écoutez! Où se trouve la guerre la plus proche!

FRENCHMAN: Içi, Monsieur!

The FRENCHMAN punches HORSE.

	30-10-2002 15:12									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse For the sake of peace I'll withdraw that remark if you like. It isn't worth arguing over But I have already instituted as host what I thought was a perfectly workable dispute settlement mechanism in the form of majority rule but every individual player being able to vetoe the majority if it is that important to them. This is a process often used in real diplomacy. I thought that was the process we used on city ceding and some other things like ship chaining. You can in my view, subject of course to the views of others in the game, still override the majority by exercising your vetoe on city ceding if it offends you that much. I still have the save and I'll back you on that. If however the players make a decision on controversial issues I think the game will be much more enjoyable if we all respect that decision and not play to the gallery by posting dissenting views here. I actually hate rules disputes and I think I'm not alone in this group on that.

OK thanks mate. I could argue a few points but... that's enough.

For the rest of the game though city ceding, unit gifting and gifting gold should not be allowed. Makeo I'm certain will agree on this too.

---

BTW, I think the way we played to the gallery was highly entertaining, informative and worthwhile.

	30-10-2002 15:23									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse ...But I have already instituted as host what I thought was a perfectly workable dispute settlement mechanism in the form of majority rule but every individual player being able to vetoe the majority if it is that important to them. This is a process often used in real diplomacy. I thought that was the process we used on city ceding and some other things like ship chaining. You can in my view, subject of course to the views of others in the game, still override the majority by exercising your vetoe on city ceding if it offends you that much. I still have the save and I'll back you on that. ...

For the record, this is news to me by the way.

However, even though I protested I never stopped playing. If you all thought I had a vetoe why not tell me the moment I complained when the city was ceded to you? It's unrealistic to go back, now that we've played 90 mins on and you have inside knowledge of my civ Take 2 would involve you attacking Makeo's city though... but never mind

Also for the record, the issues of diplo guiding and ship chaining were discussed and agreed in the thread well in advance of anyone using it. City ceding just happened and play continued...

	30-10-2002 15:25									#320
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Wasn't quite enough///

	30-10-2002 15:54									#321
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I think my Dad should be allowed to have the last word.

	30-10-2002 16:35									#322
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quote: Originally posted by Hydey I think my Dad should be allowed to have the last word.

He will. He will.

	30-10-2002 17:08									#323
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I'd rather settle this amongst ourselves on icq or through KC rather than on this thread.

	31-10-2002 02:14									#324
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Horse is a spoil sport.

	31-10-2002 02:43									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I'd rather settle this amongst ourselves on icq or through KC rather than on this thread.

You can't have it both ways! If you and others, including myself, are prepared to make fun of people in the threads I think rules discussions and game matters are even more important as thread topics. Threads are here for all these purposes.

Many people learn from other groups threads. It's not just an entetainment arena. It's a place for serious, usually and friendly dialog. Heated dialog is also useful sometimes although I think we've been quite measured in this thread.

I think most of our dialog here has been rational and interesting.

So, what's up Horsie? I also sent icq to you guys.

	31-10-2002 03:43									#326
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Forget it Deity - I don't want to play to the gallery on rules and won't.

Let's discuss it briefly on KC or icq and then just have a vote. If you want to exercise a veto, exercise it. Then we can get on with the game, which I want to finish before makeo goes overseas.

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 31-10-2002 at 03:58

	31-10-2002 04:17									#327
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Hey, this is Makeo's gf. Be sure to wish Makeo
HAPPY BIRTHDAY! AND HAPPY HALLOWEEN!:evilgrin

I think I'm going to be in trouble!

	31-10-2002 04:52									#328
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Hello

I'm Horsie

	31-10-2002 06:05									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Makeo Hey, this is Makeo's gf. Be sure to wish Makeo HAPPY BIRTHDAY! AND HAPPY HALLOWEEN!:evilgrin I think I'm going to be in trouble!

I'm sure you'll be wishing him a Happy Birtyhday from what I've heard

Welcome to Apolyton!

And Happy Birthday Makeo

Do you realise that you are 3 and half years older than when we met in our first MP game?

I think your sense of humour has improved with age

	31-10-2002 06:14									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Forget it Deity - I don't want to play to the gallery on rules and won't. Let's discuss it briefly on KC or icq and then just have a vote. If you want to exercise a veto, exercise it. Then we can get on with the game, which I want to finish before makeo goes overseas.

It's amazing how you play to the gallery when it suits you and then try to curtail discussion in the threads when it doesn't

In any case, the threads aren't just here for trolling and sledging

They are primarily here for organising games, discussing settings and rules, sometimes story-telling, strategic discussions and etc. Of course we all use them in different ways since we are are all different... with you preferring the trolling and so on but Makeo and others preferring story telling, etc etc....

If you are so paranoid about an open discussion catching you out in the public arena then I'll promise to NOT link any new agreement on city ceding to past actions