26-09-2002 09:53									#1
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Yes, its that time of year again. When the golden heat of indian summer makes its last stand again the tightening grip of autumn, when leaves start making make-over plans, and the International Monetary Fund has its fall meeting in DC.
Things should be interesting this time around, I expect things to be a bit more generally chaotic than the last big anti-IMF demo in April 2000 (although probably not close to Seattle) what with the couple-hundred person conga-line through rush hour traffic (the Anti-Capitalist Convergence's snake march) on friday morning and the quarantine action on saturday (were people will try to keep the delegates from leaving which should work better than last time when people tried to keep them from entering since pretty much all the delegates except the lazy French got up really early and beat the protestors).
And best of all, we're having a 30ish person wesleyan samba band which is the coolest thing since vinegar-soaked bandanas, especially considering the melodious strains I'll be producing with my wok

Shouldn't run into too much trouble with my good friends at the DC police department since I'm a good little student but I just might be able to smell the sweet fragrance of tear gas for the first time....

	26-09-2002 09:53									#2
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I hope you have fun accomplishing absolutely nothing but wasting taxpayers money.

Go get 'em!

	26-09-2002 09:55									#3
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Remember when the whole country used to be a free speech zone? (A man was arrested for carrying a sign that said this while standing outside the "free speech zone" at the Portland anti-Bush demos. Bush supporters were not forced to stand in the "free spech zone."

	26-09-2002 09:59									#4
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Back when I was a liberal hippie... the cops usually treated us pretty well when we protested. But then again, I never threw bottles at them

	26-09-2002 10:02									#5
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God bless you Boshko, my only protest experience has been a rather impromptu (and somewhat pathetic to be honest) anti-war demonstation at my college campus. And I partipated at a rather large-scale protest of our abortion clinics here in Wichita. That was quite an interesting experience. Last I checked my friend and I were on a website featuring pictures of "problematic" people for the hardcore pro-lifers.

	26-09-2002 10:15									#6
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quote: I hope you have fun accomplishing absolutely nothing but wasting taxpayers money.

Hey, how often did the IMF get mentioned at all in newspapers before April 16th, 2000?

quote: the cops usually treated us pretty well when we protested

Yeah, its often best to get an understanding sorted out with the police ahead of time. They're often relatively understanding and take their time arresting you if you don't cause that much trouble. This is a lot harder to do with the DC cops though....

quote: Last I checked my friend and I were on a website featuring pictures of "problematic" people for the hardcore pro-lifers.

Those people are especially fun when they show up for protests. We had some really insane nazis a while ago with signs about the jewish threat to our precious foreskins.

	26-09-2002 10:15									#7
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Cops generally treat you pretty good as long as you do what they say. The whole point of civil disobedience, however, is to disobey the police. This tends to make them less than happy with you.

Old comrade I knew from Chicago was a Brown Panther back in the day (Chicano version of Black Panthers). He was standing in the street during an impromptu demo when some cops told him to get on the sidewalk. He said, "What're you gonna do, arrest me, Pig?" They said, "No," threw the cuffs on him, tossed him in the police car, drove a few blocks away to an alley, and beat the crap out of him.

Lesson to chegitz, do not make the happy Chicago PD unhappy.

	26-09-2002 10:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Hey, how often did the IMF get mentioned at all in newspapers before April 16th, 2000?

You mean before everyone got the idea that people who opposed the IMF were anarchist hooligans who liked to trash property for ****s and giggles?

Edit: Not public property -- brainfart. I also edited a questionable word -- the singular version of the word is censored but not plural. Go Mark.

	26-09-2002 10:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Lesson to chegitz, do not make the happy Chicago PD unhappy.

As a life long Chicagoian... I second that

You NEVER want to piss off a Chicago Cop.

	26-09-2002 10:20									#10
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quote: people who opposed the IMF were anarchist hooligans who liked to trash public property for shits and giggles?

That's people who oppose the WTO I think the extent of property destruction at the anti-IMF demo was a chain-link fence and a few news paper vending boxes got moved a bit...

	26-09-2002 10:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko That's people who oppose the WTO I think the extent of property destruction at the anti-IMF demo was a chain-link fence and a few news paper vending boxes got moved a bit...

Ah, so to answer your question then the protests didn't raise the profile much, as I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

	26-09-2002 10:26									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You mean before everyone got the idea that people who opposed the IMF were anarchist hooligans who liked to trash property for ****s and giggles?

A classic example of the big lie in action. Despite the fact that the massive majority of the protest was non-violent, the presence of half a dozen hooligans gave corporate apologists an excuse to tar the entire movement. Despite the fact that the police almost always initated violence, it is the protestors who are considered violent.

	26-09-2002 10:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A classic example of the big lie in action. Despite the fact that the massive majority of the protest was non-violent, the presence of half a dozen hooligans gave corporate apologists an excuse to tar the entire movement. Despite the fact that the police almost always initated violence, it is the protestors who are considered violent.

That was my entire point. I thought he was making a point about how stuff like that raises the public visibility of those causes, but all it does is tarnish the reputations of the people who support thoses causes.

	26-09-2002 10:46									#14
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That may be true, but globalization and the WTO etc weren't even being discussed before the anti-WTO protests. While they still have a long way to go in order to stop the theft of democracy, human rights, and globalize justice (insert lefty rhetoric here), they did make a major issue of it. The movement took it's biggest hit not because they were wrongly tarred and feathered but because some right-wing loonies decided that it would be a good idea to fly some planes into the symbols of globalization.

	26-09-2002 10:51									#15
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That may be true, but globalization and the WTO etc weren't even being discussed before the anti-WTO protests.

They still aren't. Honest.

The WTO riots made news because it looked like a bunch of morons wrecking things for fun, people didn't care about their "cause" or spark debates about it at all. You had the odd media newsbrief of these protestors complaining about how the WTO kill people, but the vast majority of people looked at it as an excuse to protest and destroy stuff. Yes, I know the vast majority of protestors didn't do that, but that's not what it looks like in media coverage.

	26-09-2002 10:59									#16
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I think, if nothing else, these protests made it clear that it is at least possible in theory to oppose globalization. Which is certainly a step (however baby-sized) in the right direction.

	26-09-2002 11:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I think, if nothing else, these protests made it clear that it is at least possible in theory to oppose globalization. Which is certainly a step (however baby-sized) in the right direction.

Ideally they would have.
In reality it looked like wanton destruction by hooligans, nothing more.

	26-09-2002 11:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ming As a life long Chicagoian... I second that You NEVER want to piss off a Chicago Cop.

I hear bribery is better way to go in Chicago.

	26-09-2002 11:06									#19
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I think you're overstating the effects of the negative press coverage Ashie. While certainly the ammount of awareness that these events may foster is small. It is there. We leftys are all about awareness, if I were to tell the average Kansanite that I was a commie, he would probably respond with something like "A Commie? Doesn't that mean you are some KKK Hitler lover?" If we could spread the true message of what Communism is really all about without the demonization it has received (particularly here in the states), that same person who thought I was a Hitler-lover, could be a possible supporter in the future.

Err... sorry if I rambled a bit there.

	26-09-2002 11:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I think you're overstating the effects of the negative press coverage Ashie.

No, you're understating the effects of the protests. It wasn't big news that people were protesting.

What the media focused on, and indeed what the stories were about, was about the wanton destruction on Seattle streets by protestors.

I know you'd like to think it accomplished something, but it probably set the movement back if anything. Very few people wanted to come out and say they agreed ideologically with those morons.

	26-09-2002 11:17									#21
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I would like to think that a good-sized chunk of the people who would agree ideologically, or at least have potential to agree, would have the sense to see past the blatantly one-sided news. But perhaps that is overly optimistic of me.
I think, if nothing else, it made it clear that there is an undercurrent of disenchantment with globalization, and some people who may have been silent about their feelings on the matter, may actually be a bit more vocal in their opposition in the future.

	26-09-2002 11:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I think, if nothing else, these protests made it clear that it is at least possible in theory to oppose globalization. Which is certainly a step (however baby-sized) in the right direction.

Why is it the right direction?

People go to war because of differences. Globalizition decreases those differences. They won't go away completely, at least for a long time but I can't see what is supposed to be so awful about globalization.

	26-09-2002 11:24									#23
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most people don't care about globalization. people care more about fighting terrorism/Saddam/whoever the hell it is we are fighting at the time.

	26-09-2002 11:29									#24
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Well Ethy, I see it as Globalization as the new force of Imperialism in the world. Traditional colonization (in the vein of the British Empire) won't work any longer, because the world community simply won't have it. Imperialism now lies in the hands of several powerful multi-national corporations to exert near-paralyzing influence on the rest of the world. (For a good read on this subject see Hardt and Negri's "Empire", if you feel so bold). So there probably will be less wars as you said, simply because the new imperial powers will get what they want without a fight. But there will be much more subjugation and economic injustice.
As for me, I would prefer a world with few wars, and subjugation and economic injustice kept to a minimum. So that's why I oppose globalization.

	26-09-2002 11:41									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Why is it the right direction? People go to war because of differences. Globalizition decreases those differences. They won't go away completely, at least for a long time but I can't see what is supposed to be so awful about globalization.

Because economic globalisation is happening, but political globalisation isn't. The result is that votes count less, dollars count more. **** deal.

	26-09-2002 11:49									#26
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Well Ethy, I see it as Globalization as the new force of Imperialism in the world. Traditional colonization (in the vein of the British Empire) won't work any longer, because the world community simply won't have it.

Globalization is entirely voluntary. No one has to go to McDonalds for lunch. Its not imperialism its just business.

quote: As for me, I would prefer a world with few wars, and subjugation and economic injustice kept to a minimum. So that's why I oppose globalization.

You just contradicted yourself. If you want to minimize war than globalization is the way to go. War is bad for business. Dead people just don't buy much and produce only fertilizer.

I can understand complaining about monopolies but those are not inherent in globalization. It does mean we need more international laws to control things.

Its odd to me just how much of the anti-globalization propaganda comes from Americans. We are doing the lions share cultural exportation and we have ALWAYS been importing culture in the first place. Its not US companies have a lock on it either. Phillips is or at least was, last time I looked, the biggest multinational.

Now the IMF is something else. Considering that Bob McNamara had his hands on that thing I figure it must have some real problems because he helped mess up the US with his stupidity in the Viet Nam War.

	26-09-2002 11:53									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Globalization is entirely voluntary. No one has to go to McDonalds for lunch. Its not imperialism its just business.

It's about signing agreements that limit a country's sovereignty. It's not about me railing against American cultural hegemony (which is overrated, IMO); it's about me railing against the fact that we've given up our right to have a different economic system in general or in detail.

The corporations now have mechanisms to take governments to court to force them to adhere to standards used in other countries that are party to the agreements. It's now "lowest common denominator" as far as protections for the average citizen is concerned.

	26-09-2002 11:55									#28
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The problem with globalization is it helps me too much, and is therefore evil.

	26-09-2002 11:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred You just contradicted yourself. If you want to minimize war than globalization is the way to go. I

Ah, but it's not an inherent contradiction Ethy. I do want less wars, but at the same time I don't want economic subjugation. So in other words, I want to have my cake and eat it too. I don't want to be forced to settle for one or the other. I want to work to make both problems go away, rather than accept that one is always going to be there.

	26-09-2002 12:06									#30
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If people choose to go to McDonalds or do something stupid like borrow WAY too much money that isn't subjugation. Its voluntary.

The United Fruit Co. is no longer controlling foreign governments. Things have gotten better not worse regarding what you are complaining about.