04-10-2002 16:51									#1
	OK Pro-Abortionists...Case Study. Get a bigger avatar today!

Last night I was out watching a couple of football games when I saw a pregnant women smoking and drinking.

Are you pro-choice for the female to do whatever she wants to her body, or do you care that the baby will be suffering and either die or be born with alcohol- and smoking-related defects?

Personally, I think she souldn't be smoking or drinking, and that is consistent with my beliefs about abortion.

However, you ought to think it's her body and can do what she wants, regardless of any ill effects to the baby, in order to be consistent. After all, it isn't a proper human is it?

	04-10-2002 17:03									#2
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Drinking and smoking isn't healthy for an adult - let alone fetus. No, she shouldn't do either of them.

	04-10-2002 17:15									#3
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Puritans...

I defend the idea that you must be free to do what you to your body.

I knew very few case where a mother was still drinking and smoking when pregnant. I know far more cases where the mother stop smoking and obliged her husband to stop smoking too at home.

	04-10-2002 17:27									#4
	Re: OK Pro-Abortionists...Case Study. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Personally, I think she souldn't be smoking or drinking, and that is consistent with my beliefs about abortion.

How far would you 'fight' for you beliefs?
Try to convince her? Force her?
What if you thought eating pork - beef(?) - is dangerous for the health?
To how far are you allowed to force people (adults) to behave according to your own beliefs.

On my side, I am - a priori - against abortion, the same way I am against amputation. I would avoid it by all means. But I would never ever condamn a doctor for an amputation if it saves a life.
In some rare cases, amputation may be a crime, but most of the time it is a least evil.
Abortion, like amputation should be allowed by the law.

And BTW: I also disagree about the child being a part of the woman's body, but maybe this is another debate.

	04-10-2002 17:39									#5
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You can't really stop her. And while it would be nice to stop her, I don't believe we have the right to.
Now if it's something illegal, then if she's caught, I have no problem putting her in jail which might stop some of the problem.

But let's turn it around for those that are pro-life.
The lady knows that she will be unable to stop smoking or drinking and the fetus is being damaged BIG time,
so she chooses to have an abortion.

Hmmmmm.

	04-10-2002 17:43									#6
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quote: However, you ought to think it's her body and can do what she wants, regardless of any ill effects to the baby, in order to be consistent. After all, it isn't a proper human is it?

Yep. You can give people information about what they are doing and advise people to stop but you can't force them.

	04-10-2002 18:06									#7
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But what if it harms someone else, that's the crux of the issue; not what she does to herself.

	04-10-2002 18:18									#9
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Is anybody here "pro-abortion"? I doubt it. Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion.

quote: Personally, I think she souldn't be smoking or drinking, and that is consistent with my beliefs about abortion.

Not if you're a "pro-lifer". You should seek the woman's trial and imprisonment for this crime.

	04-10-2002 18:24									#10
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...Also, if the only health risk was an early miscarriage, then her decision to become pregnant and then risk miscarriage is hers alone: no other person will suffer.

It is the risk of actually producing a child who will suffer long-term effects that makes this wrong. A person could suffer.

	04-10-2002 18:24									#11
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There is a difference between aborting a lump of cells and giving birth to a baby that is severely damaged from your drinking/smoking/etc behaviour...

	04-10-2002 18:43									#12
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I don't know at what you are driving Stew.

Clearly, alcoholism and smoking are both bad for a person, and the woman in question really should stop.

	04-10-2002 18:45									#13
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Has our Stewey joined the BNP yet?

	04-10-2002 18:59									#14
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Is he the BNP brute squad?

	04-10-2002 19:04									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid There is a difference between aborting a lump of cells and giving birth to a baby that is severely damaged from your drinking/smoking/etc behaviour...

So to kill something is not as bad as merely harming it?

	04-10-2002 19:07									#16
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You should strap a monitor on her to make sure she doesn't use foul language either. I mean, the baby could hear her!

The conservative world looks more and more like 1984 ...

	04-10-2002 19:15									#17
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You could call social servies to take her baby away when its born cause obvously she is a bad mother!....

Heavy sarcasm.... please note.

Seriously I would almost be inclined to talk to her as I have seen adults who had fetal alchol syndrome. It was not a good thing, when that adult is trying to cope with it.

I wonder could the adult then sue the mother for damages caused?

	04-10-2002 19:23									#18
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I'm pro-abortion. Abortions for all!

	04-10-2002 19:34									#19
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Can I have one?

	04-10-2002 19:36									#20
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OK, abortions for some, tiny American flags for others.

	04-10-2002 19:50									#21
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I am pro-abortion. I believe all babies that have even a small chance of growing up like Bod should be identified as early as possible and destroyed.

	04-10-2002 19:52									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi OK, abortions for some, tiny American flags for others.

I don't want a flag! This is totally unfair sex discrimination.

	04-10-2002 19:53									#23
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There's just no pleasing you people. No abortions for anyone!

	04-10-2002 20:05									#24
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I dont consider a fetus to be fully human, so aborting a fetus does not harm a human, only a potential human. Smoking and drinking while you are pregnant will very likely cause your baby to have serious health problems, so it harms a human. The stupid women who do thses things while they are pregnant will get what they deserve when they have to take care of a kid with myriad ****ed-up health problems. Unfortunately the kid doesnt deserve any of it. I think its the same thing as child abuse. Women who have kids that are ****ed up from their drinking and smoking while pregnant should be charged with child abuse IMO.

	04-10-2002 20:32									#25
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Since some in the anti-choice crowd continue to use offensive misnomers like "Pro-Abortionists," can we start using similar labels for them, like "Pro-Child Suffering?"

	04-10-2002 20:37									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov can we start using similar labels for them, like "Pro-Child Suffering?"

Why not? Just to get you started, some in the pro-choice crowd like the terms anti-choice or anti-woman.

	04-10-2002 20:43									#27
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Anti-choice is accurate, isn't it? Against people being able to choose to have an abortion. "Pro-Abortion" is not accurate, it's just a cheap way of slandering people with opposing views.

I've never heard anyone using "anti-woman" before as a label.

	04-10-2002 20:48									#28
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I've only heard it from che.

	04-10-2002 21:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Anti-choice is accurate, isn't it? Against people being able to choose to have an abortion. "Pro-Abortion" is not accurate, it's just a cheap way of slandering people with opposing views.

Allow me to quote Imran for a moment:

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: 'anti-life' and 'anti-choice' are not compatible Lincoln, so yes it is a troll. Actually they are compatible. Those that are against abortion believe in choice in other spheres, just like those that are for abortion believe in life in other spheres. Admit it, he just used a term that makes you uncomfortable, even though you have no problem with the term in the opposite way. And you were calling some other people hypocrites?

	04-10-2002 21:04									#30
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I still prefer "pro-murder." If you're going to change the terms, go the whole hog.