06-10-2002 01:44									#91
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Bod is a perfect example of why drinking and smoking while pregnant is a bad idea.

	06-10-2002 01:46									#92
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quote: Originally posted by flash9286 how can Europeans suppor abortion and be anti-death penalty

I agree, i simply find it dumb that there are people who think all humans have the right to live. Everything has a value that can be defined, even human life. I support abortion and would like to have death penalty here.
Im not 100% sure but in Finland when you get sentenced for life, its like 12 years! Its even called that in finnish language!! (Elinkautinen=life long sentence). Also if someone tries to rob you and you kick his ass you're the bad guy!

Oh and Sonic, why dont you convince us that fetus is a person? Try to put feelings aside, if you can.

	06-10-2002 03:11									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Last night I was out watching a couple of football games when I saw a pregnant women smoking and drinking. Are you pro-choice for the female to do whatever she wants to her body, or do you care that the baby will be suffering and either die or be born with alcohol- and smoking-related defects? Personally, I think she souldn't be smoking or drinking, and that is consistent with my beliefs about abortion. However, you ought to think it's her body and can do what she wants, regardless of any ill effects to the baby, in order to be consistent. After all, it isn't a proper human is it?

I'm strongly in favor that this women had been aborted a long time ago.

	06-10-2002 04:48									#94
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tnyp3nis, he is biologically a person from a time sperm and women sexual cell united. Since than killing him would be a murder. This is not feelings, more like brain who indicates me that. I always thought about abortions as a contradiction of law. I was trying to think any pro-abortionist arguements, but all I could think of were plain stupid. On every issue I could find arguements (for example, I could say many anti-death penality arguements even I am pro-death penality myself), but on this one I've just couldn't. Law legalising abortions is the same as law legalising for example murders of all childs beyond 3 years old (if family thinks they actually doesn't wants them) would be. Again, all the same "arguements" would fit - that it's better to kill him than to allow him grow if parents doesn't have enough time for him, etc. However I do believe only very few of pro-abortionists would agree on this issue. Which just again proves pro-abortionists themselves are based on feelings, not brain. If they would be based on brain they would also agree on law legalising murders of childrens beyond certain age - the only place family can truly decide werether growing child for them is too "hard" or not is only when the child is born and they've seen all the downsides related with him.

	06-10-2002 04:50									#95
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quote: he is biologically a person from a time sperm and women sexual cell united

No he isn't.

quote: Since than killing him would be a murder. This is not feelings, more like brain who indicates me that. I always thought about abortions as a contradiction of law.

No it isn't.

Jesus, why not just label all of our beliefs as axiomatic? That way we can never be proven wrong...

	06-10-2002 05:10									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic However, once semen connects with women's sexual cell (don't know the name in ENglish, sorry), it becomes a person. Yes, it becomes a person exacly then, not when it is born.

If somebody is brain-dead on life support, do you consider it murder to take them off of life support?

	06-10-2002 05:21									#97
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loinburger, no. I do consider braindying an end of life (well, biological end of life. By current technologies maybe it isn't exacly that, but I don't consider pullig of life support a murder).

Frogger, I proved my arguements and you didn't. Saying "no it isn't" is not an arguement at all.

	06-10-2002 05:23									#98
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quote: Frogger, I proved my arguements

	06-10-2002 05:24									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic loinburger, no. I do consider braindying an end of life (well, biological end of life. By current technologies maybe it isn't exacly that, but I don't consider pullig of life support a murder).

So you believe that humans without functional brains are not truly people? And yet you consider the abortion of an unborn child to be murder, even though the unborn's brain doesn't function until the third trimester?

	06-10-2002 05:26									#100
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That's an interesting proof you've got there.

quote: No, semen aren't people, because no person can be born only from semen. However, once semen connects with women's sexual cell (don't know the name in ENglish, sorry), it becomes a person. Yes, it becomes a person exacly then, not when it is born

A fetus becomes a person when it can survive outside the womb.

See? I can make assertions too...

	06-10-2002 05:26									#101
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Frogger, re-read my post

Loinburger, main thing here is not a functioning brain - it's the fact that if not abortion unborn baby, even one from the first trimester, would in most cases become child, than an adult. While brain-dead person won't become living person anymore.

	06-10-2002 05:27									#102
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i.e. when it has independently functioning lungs, heart, digestive system etc.

	06-10-2002 05:28									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Loinburger, main thing here is not a functioning brain - it's the fact that if not abortion unborn baby, even one from the first trimester, would in most cases become child, than an adult. While brain-dead person won't become living person anymore.

If "removing the possibility of a person coming into existence" is murder, then contraception and abstinence are also murder.

	06-10-2002 05:29									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Frogger, re-read my post

I just di and quoted the only "proof" I see.

It's something that has been stated hundreds of times here already. It has yet to be proven. So has my assertion about when a fetus becomes a person. Do you have some sort of mental block, or are you just playing dumb to avoid having to think?

	06-10-2002 05:30									#105
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I've heard that Lithuanians are the only people in Europe drunker and more depraved than the Danes. Is this true?

	06-10-2002 05:35									#106
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loinburger, yes, contraception is the only actual ability to "remove person coming into existance" and in my opinion it is good. However, if men's and women's sexual cells unite, it's already a person, so, no way to "stop it coming to existance", because it is already in existance. You can however kill him.

fogar ya me has a mental blok ov som sorted

Actually, I have proved my opinion. I am quouting it myself if you can't find:
"it's the fact that if not abortion unborn baby, even one from the first trimester, would in most cases become child"

	06-10-2002 05:38									#107
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I won't comment your post about Lithuanians...

	06-10-2002 05:39									#108
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quote: it's the fact that if not abortion unborn baby, even one from the first trimester, would in most cases become child"

It's also a fact that if two highly fertile people had sex without a condom that they'd make a baby within a month or two. Does tha make their use of a condom murder?

	06-10-2002 05:39									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic I won't comment your post about Lithuanians...

It's okay; apparently without Lithuania and Denmark the porn supply of North America would dry up instantly, wreaking economic chaos...

	06-10-2002 05:42									#110
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No, you unerstood me wrong (or you act so). The fact is that unborn baby will "automatically" become a child if not abortion. While a fertile couple has to do sex to make child.

	06-10-2002 05:42									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic loinburger, yes, contraception is the only actual ability to "remove person coming into existance" and in my opinion it is good. However, if men's and women's sexual cells unite, it's already a person, so, no way to "stop it coming to existance", because it is already in existance. You can however kill him. fogar ya me has a mental blok ov som sorted Actually, I have proved my opinion. I am quouting it myself if you can't find: "it's the fact that if not abortion unborn baby, even one from the first trimester, would in most cases become child"

When they unite, only thing that happens is they become a lump of meat, nothing more.

Btw : Kill does not equal bad, but that is a whole different story.

And Finns are drunks frogger

	06-10-2002 05:43									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic No, you unerstood me wrong (or you act so). The fact is that unborn baby will "automatically" become a child if not abortion. While a fertile couple has to do sex to make child.

The zygote will become a child only if the mother nurtures it as part of her own body for 5-6 months. There's nothing "automatic" about it.

	06-10-2002 05:44									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger It's okay; apparently without Lithuania and Denmark the porn supply of North America would dry up instantly, wreaking economic chaos...

Well, I just understood you are making fun of me rather than thinking arguements, so I won't say anything for now to you.

Anyway, say at least one Lithuanian porn site please.

	06-10-2002 05:48									#114
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tinyp3nis, yes, I agree kill is not always bad - again, I am for capital sentence and I do think some "groups" of people should be killed... But yes that is different discution.

However, I do think killing of innocent person is bad.

	06-10-2002 05:49									#115
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But this is actually what one guy told me after travelling around Europe: that if you want to get down and dirty with life, Denmark and Lithuania are the places to go...

	06-10-2002 05:49									#116
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Which "groups" should be killed?

	06-10-2002 05:55									#117
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Seriously mentally disabled people for example. I really hate the explaination "he can't be put in jail because he's insane". And mentally disabled people can grant nothing for the society. If he kills because he doesn't understands his actions he should be killed himself, because unlike with typical murderers there is exacly no way for him to understand his error and not to act so in the future.

	06-10-2002 06:00									#118
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Ok, that's not really killing a "group," that's merely not excusing someone's actions based on their mental capacity and applying the same punishment to them you would to others who committed the same crime.

The way you phrased it, you seemed to advocate killing a "group" based not on what they have done, but who they are. That was what I was really curious to hear about...

Unless you're saying you'd kill all seriously mentally disabled people, regardless of what they had done?

	06-10-2002 06:08									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic tinyp3nis, yes, I agree kill is not always bad - again, I am for capital sentence and I do think some "groups" of people should be killed... But yes that is different discution. However, I do think killing of innocent person is bad.

When people have sex and put a condom on, they are infact preventing a child from being born. This is ok with you? But not killing a fetus? Fetus has nothing, so you cant take nothing away from him. He has a life? What? Whats that?? Another word that has not any other meaning than the word itself, like the word to kill we discussed abo0t.
If you really believe in that preventing stuff, why you dont consider using condom as bad as that? It will happen eventually even if not every time people have sex.
Edit: My english...me monkey

	06-10-2002 06:10									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic No, you unerstood me wrong (or you act so). The fact is that unborn baby will "automatically" become a child if not abortion. While a fertile couple has to do sex to make child.

There is only a 40% chance that a zygote will develop into a newborn. There's nothing "automatic" about it.