05-10-2002 01:16									#61
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Oops, double post

	05-10-2002 01:18									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov This entire page of the thread should be deleted.

Might as well delete the whole thing. The spam page is the best part of the thread.

	05-10-2002 01:19									#63
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Might as well delete the whole thing. The spam page is the best part of the thread.

Hmm, good point.

	05-10-2002 01:19									#64
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That's fine, I don't think it's inconsistent either. Everyone should have a chance to live, but not everyone deserves to continue living.

	05-10-2002 01:37									#65
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Me:

Abortion - pro choice
Death Penalty - ???
Euthinasia - pro choice

A woman who is smoking or drinking while pregnant is asking for a miss caraige (spelling??) and if that doesn't happen then she'll most likely end up with a diseased child, in which case she is asking for death.

She should not be able to inflict such harm of another human being, even if it is inside her, for during that time her body is the body of the child as well. I just hope that the moron has the child in a hospital and that child services has her uterus removed or tied once the child is born.

The death penalty is both reasonable and illogical if one considers the wholes that exist in our judicial system. The guilty should be punished justly, by which I mean that if the killed another they too should die. Yet, there are plenaty of cases where the innocent pay the price while the guilty walks.

Wouldn't it be kewl if we let the convicted decide their fate; death or life in prison? Pro choice across the board.

The only time inconsitency arises in regards to ppls opinions on this matter is when religion gets invovled.

	05-10-2002 02:53									#66
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FWIW:
Anti-abortion and pro-death penalty are in no way inconsistent.
The death penalty is for people who have committed crimes. They've done a bad thing, so pro-death penalty people think they should die.
The unborn baby has done nothing wrong. It is innocent. Anti-abortionists believe that killing it is wrong.

It's a question of guilt I suppose.

(BTW, I'm anti-death penalty and pro-choice )

	05-10-2002 02:55									#67
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ah. **** it.

	05-10-2002 05:04									#68
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I'm pro-life, in that I oppose the death penalty and abortion. However, I don't think it's right to go so far as to send people who have and perform abortions to prison. I'm just opposed to the practice, like most people are.

I think that a research effort directed towards finding a way to bring pregnancies to term outside of the uterus would be satisfactory to all parties. The fetus would enjoy its right to life, while the mother wouldn't be forced to carry it to term. If only both sides would spend the money they raised on bringing about a solution like that, instead of fighting it out all the time.

	05-10-2002 05:33									#69
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PH summed it up best.

She is a bad mother, not a criminal.

	05-10-2002 05:50									#70
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The mother has no right to drink if she plans to continue the pregnancy to term.

She has the right to stop a person from being created; she does not have the right to take actions now that will handicap a person later.

	05-10-2002 05:55									#71
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Frogger, so in your opinion it is better to murder an innocent person than just to hurt him?

	05-10-2002 06:05									#72
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What innocent person?

	05-10-2002 06:11									#73
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A child. You just said killing him would be more justified than hurting it.

	05-10-2002 06:14									#74
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The child is not a person when an abortion is performed.

	05-10-2002 06:38									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Frogger, so in your opinion it is better to murder an innocent person than just to hurt him?

That's a pretty cute way to completely misinterpret somebody's argument.

	05-10-2002 06:51									#76
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Ah, but you shoukld take into account that if she was doing crack she very well could be legally culpable for the potential harm to the unborn child. I'm not sure if it's called child endangerment or child abuse.

	05-10-2002 08:24									#77
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I agree that she should be responsible. It's like driving drunk...

	05-10-2002 08:43									#78
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Ok, we have settled on a new standard for convoluted logic. Its okay to abort a child but criminal to smoke and drink while carrying the same child. That begs the question, if a woman is caught smoking or drinking while pregnant can she beat the rap by doing a quick abortion?

Should we allow a child whose mother smoked or drinked while pregnant to sue its mother for damages?

Perhaps we should require a certificate of good conduct from women who want abortions. Proof that they did not smoke or drink while pregnant. If they have done such things we must not allow the abortion in order to safeguard the unborn baby's potential legal rights to recover damages from her mother.

	05-10-2002 08:44									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I am pro-abortion. I believe all babies that have even a small chance of growing up like Bod should be identified as early as possible and destroyed.

I think men who are against abortion, should not be allowed to masturbate. Or even have balls... ITS MURDER I TELL YOU!!! Semen are people!!! ok?

	05-10-2002 08:46									#80
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Ok, we have settled on a new standard for convoluted logic. Its okay to abort a child but criminal to smoke and drink while carrying the same child. That begs the question, if a woman is caught smoking or drinking while pregnant can she beat the rap by doing a quick abortion?

Sure. If teh pregnancy didn't reach the third trimester then there's nobody to hurt.

quote: Should we allow a child whose mother smoked or drinked while pregnant to sue its mother for damages?

Yes.

	05-10-2002 08:53									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Last night I was out watching a couple of football games when I saw a pregnant women smoking and drinking. Are you pro-choice for the female to do whatever she wants to her body, or do you care that the baby will be suffering and either die or be born with alcohol- and smoking-related defects? Personally, I think she souldn't be smoking or drinking, and that is consistent with my beliefs about abortion. However, you ought to think it's her body and can do what she wants, regardless of any ill effects to the baby, in order to be consistent. After all, it isn't a proper human is it?

BAAAAAACK to the thread author's original topic.

As several others have already said what I agree with, the woman is behaving in ways that I have no respect for, yet we are not legally enabled to force her to stop.

If a mother is engaging in health-detrimental behavior while pregnant, she is engaging in unethical behavior, if she never intended to abort the fetus.

IMO, when a woman is pregnant due to rape, or if her delivering the baby would endanger her life, then an abortion is an ethical, legitimate option -- IMO, the woman's life and/or well-being takes precedence over a fetus.

	05-10-2002 08:55									#82
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quote: As several others have already said what I agree with, the woman is behaving in ways that I have no respect for, yet we are not legally enabled to force her to stop

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/spib_SADP.pdf

	05-10-2002 09:07									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: As several others have already said what I agree with, the woman is behaving in ways that I have no respect for, yet we are not legally enabled to force her to stop http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/spib_SADP.pdf

South Carolina does not count -- it's a backwards state where people have used the Bible to replace constitutional law.

	05-10-2002 09:09									#84
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Trying to look up Canadian law, but not finding very much. I seem to recall a woman losing custody of her child for her acts during pregnancy a few months ago...

	05-10-2002 09:16									#85
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Yes Frogger In CANADA we have three classes of society lawyers are one of them. In order to get access to law you have to be in it. That is why we have legal aid and legal clinics wasting our cash. God forbid we all had equal access to law here...

You are correct in fact smoking while pregnant has been ruled on as one example.

It is interesting to note that men have been charged with endangering the life of a fetus yet in CANADA very few women have for similar and or worse endangerment to the life of an unborn.

Coat hanger abortions are not a criminal offernce to the woman just the one proforming it etc...

	05-10-2002 17:23									#86
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No, semen aren't people, because no person can be born only from semen. However, once semen connects with women's sexual cell (don't know the name in ENglish, sorry), it becomes a person. Yes, it becomes a person exacly then, not when it is born.

	05-10-2002 17:58									#87
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I think the kid could file a law suit when grown up.

	05-10-2002 18:01									#88
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In any case - yes - the woman can do what she wants - tp her self.

But if she is hurting the child - then social services should step it.

Would a woman with a 5 y/o be allowed to let him smoke and drink alcohol? No - social services would take the kid away.

Same thing should be done as early as possible to the said woman once she gives birth.

	06-10-2002 00:53									#89
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how can Europeans suppor abortion and be anti-death penalty

	06-10-2002 01:32									#90
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"If a mother is engaging in health-detrimental behavior while pregnant, she is engaging in unethical behavior, if she never intended to abort the fetus."

Of course if she kills the kid then it becomes "ethical". This is one reason why I am not a liberal. How do you twist this so easily? And let me guess, you do not approve of Capital punishment yet you do think that aborting a fetus is a solution to the unhealthy practices of a mother? Correct me if I am wrong.