31-01-2003 03:12									#271
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quote: Originally posted by HatchetMan How about a paranoia-weapon, like that one Mr. Bush has been exposed of? After being attacked with it, you lose all human IQ and randomly attacks (or wants to attack...) everyone you see! Yeah, that's it! But you shouldn't use it on someone able to build the Manhattan excluding project, which prevents any other player from using (or even possessing) mass-destruction weapons!!

Hilarious.

	31-01-2003 03:23									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Regular 100x100: EU US England Arabs Middle Saharans South Africans Persian states India Southeast Asia China Russia Japan Mexico Andeans MercoSur In PTW version Iran and Pakistan will be separated, and South America might be further split up.

Hmmm, a good lineup. Might I suggest the division of Africa into three blocs, though?

Islamic Africa
Christian Africa, Bloc 1
Christian Africa, Bloc 2

these two blocs would be set up around the Congo War, which is commonly referred to as "Africa's First World War".

In terms of dividing up Latin/South America, how about :

MercoSur
Leftist Bloc

as here too, the andean countries cannot be quite exactly lumped together.

And what about the middle asian countries? Kazahkstan, Uzbekistan, etc.

Is Australia to be linked with Britain? What about Canada and Israel?

...just stuff to think about. Keep up the good work!

	31-01-2003 04:06									#273
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Auzzland, Canada, and Britain are together for civ3 versions. In PTW versions they're all separate. Israel will have a different role in each version:

100x100 for Civ3 - Nonexistent. (Damascus will be the only city in the area)
100x100 PTW - Alone, just Jerusalem (It will have heavy uber-bonuses and the Merkava kicks ass, so it should fare OK)
204x256 Civ3 - Just Jerusalem, paired with US
204x256 PTW - Jerusalem and Haifa, and it will govern itself.

The countries that sit between the Persian civ (Iran/Pakistan) and Russia will be divided between those two civs. Most will go to persia. Kazakhstan, I think, is the only exception.

Andean countries will have to live for 1.29 users. I only have room for 3 civs in Latin America. In PTW I can have 5, maybe more. (Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, Argentina, Peru)

I think that Africa is best divided Islamic (Northern + Mogadishu and Mombasa) Central and Southern. Their relations are so complicated that you can't fit them together well into civs (even real countries have difficulties with that!) so we might as well just let them have nice continuous empires.

	31-01-2003 04:19									#274
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I agree with your grouping of Africa, but have a few small suggestions regarding South America:

Columbia and Peru should be together, perhaps with Chile, Argentina... Ecuador and Bolivia should be with Venezuela to reflect the current political trends there... and what about Central America and the Caribbean? All linger on under "democratic" governments, pro-Western, that are the spawn of dictatorships... they can all be lumped together (except Cuba) perhaps, but with whom? The US?

As for the Central Asian states, they are all anamolies... they have links to Iran, America, Russia, and China, and all mostly each other... perhaps they should be divided between those four?

I'll try to do some research... keep up the good work.

	31-01-2003 05:13									#275
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Good grief, does everybody hate Bush? I know he's not a perfect leader, but he does the best he can. Bush Sr. didn't finish the job when it came to Iraq, and he should have. George W. is only getting picked on because America feels it has other worries, mainly the recession, and people feel like they need someone to blame. And it's almost alwys the president or someone in Congress. Grow up, people.

	31-01-2003 18:25									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Centauri18 Good grief, does everybody hate Bush? I know he's not a perfect leader, but he does the best he can. Bush Sr. didn't finish the job when it came to Iraq, and he should have. George W. is only getting picked on because America feels it has other worries, mainly the recession, and people feel like they need someone to blame. And it's almost alwys the president or someone in Congress. Grow up, people.

That's a load of you-know-what. The man was not elected and needs to distract his populace from this fact, and the fact that his ludicrous domestic policies are destroying the economy, strengthening segregation and hurting non-elites of all kinds.

It's just like in Civ, when someone declares war on you: if you prosecute a successful war against them, many cities will celebrate "We Love The President Day". Bush Jr. is counting on the same thing.

	31-01-2003 23:27									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Centauri18 Good grief, does everybody hate Bush? I know he's not a perfect leader, but he does the best he can. Bush Sr. didn't finish the job when it came to Iraq, and he should have. George W. is only getting picked on because America feels it has other worries, mainly the recession, and people feel like they need someone to blame. And it's almost alwys the president or someone in Congress. Grow up, people.

another person blinded by propaganda and us-media self -imposed censorship.
but please come on topic. for this there are enough threads in the OT-forum.

i think caribbean and middle american civs should either be on their own or together with mexico or a south american civ. even though a lot officially are pro-western, they are latin american and culturally nearer to other "latinos" than to the US.

although this is a modern day scenario, i think we should see the big picture and not just what's current right now. otherwise call it a 2003 scenario.

still looking forward to playing it

	01-02-2003 00:14									#278
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Perhaps the best way to divide America south of the Rio Grande is:

Mexico, Guatemala, Hondorus, El Salvador, Belize, Costa Rica, Panama, Columbia: one civ

Venezuela, Cuba, Brazil, Bolivia, Ecuador: one civ

Argentina, Chile, Peru, Uruguay, and the others I've left out: one civ

This reflects, to the best of my knowledge, current political, and to a lesser extent cultural, groupings.

Agreements? Disagreements? I'll post a more detailed explanation of my rationale if anyone is interested.

	01-02-2003 06:15									#279
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Sorry, for my temporary absence from the boards - I have been busy. In any case, I will now make up for it with some more information: (Often I do not know the proportions of old to new equipment, so make your own judgement on that when not indicated.)


Main Battle Tanks:-
1. Russia - 16,800 (Down from over 60,000 in 1990)
2. China - 7,100 old ones + 1,000 modern = 8,100 total
3. USA - 8,087
4. Syria - 3,100 old + 1,500 medium age = 4,600 total
5. Turkey - 4,300 (some old, some medium age)
6. Israel - 4,050 (Most are old, but significant numbers are modern)
7. Ukraine - 4,026
8. India - 3,500
9. North Korea - 3,400 old ones
10. Egypt - 3,300 all are old
11. Germany - 2,700 (All are modern, or at least relatively so)
12. Iraq - 2,700
13. Libya - 2,200
14. South Korea - 2,050
15. Pakistan - 1,950
16. Poland - 1,727
17. Iran - 1,440
18. Italy - 1,300
19. Serbia and Montenegro - 1,300
20. Vietnam - 1,300 all are old
21. Japan - 1,100
22. France - 1,084
23. Czech Republic - 1,010
24. Saudi Arabia - 1,000
25. Yemen - 1,000 old and medium age
26. Algeria - 1,000 old and medium age
27. Netherlands - 750
28. Spain - 700
29. Switzerland - 642
30. Jordan - 600
31. UK - 590 (All are modern)

	01-02-2003 08:49									#280
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I'm sorry. It's just that I never hear anybody say anything good about him. And as for that particular post, I'd been operating on an entire day without sleep, so I apologize.

	01-02-2003 12:20									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Centauri18 I'm sorry. It's just that I never hear anybody say anything good about him. And as for that particular post, I'd been operating on an entire day without sleep, so I apologize.

Well, if it makes you feel better, I like Bush's policy on nuclear power stations, since I think they are a secure (in terms of fuel supplies) and comparatively environmentally friendly (sure they produce nuclear waste, but no greenhouse gasses or pollution) way of generating electricity. Renewable energies currently cannot supply us with all the energy we need, so we ought to go nuclear (in combination with as many renewable energy production facilities as are feasible).

I think it is particularly Bush's inclination to go to war with Iraq that makes him so unpopular. Frankly, I do not think the war is in the US interest. If Bush wants oil it would be much easier (and cheaper!) to simply allow Iraq to export it and keep the inspectors in to deal with WMD.

	01-02-2003 16:08									#282
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Lots of misunderstendings in this list of tanks...

For example China:
6000 Type 59-II
1200 Type 69
500 Type 80
800 Type 85-II
100 Type 90-II

It is a real nimber for china... Only Type-90II can be treated as modern, but I would like to say it is higher middle class.

Poland - 1700 - nope, we magazined year ago 900 T-55, and we have 800 tanks.

Mostly, the old tanks in clash with modern tanks have no chance to win even if ratio would be 10:1 or higher!!!!

And Russia - we do not know how many tanks do they have, but analitycs say that over 20.000

	02-02-2003 02:01									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Luk Lots of misunderstendings in this list of tanks... For example China: 6000 Type 59-II 1200 Type 69 500 Type 80 800 Type 85-II 100 Type 90-II It is a real nimber for china... Only Type-90II can be treated as modern, but I would like to say it is higher middle class.

Right, but we are unlikely to split up tanks into so many classes, perhaps only old, medium age, and modern, so the above still applies.

quote: Poland - 1700 - nope, we magazined year ago 900 T-55, and we have 800 tanks.

Fair enough - my info on Poland was from year 2000.

quote: Mostly, the old tanks in clash with modern tanks have no chance to win even if ratio would be 10:1 or higher!!!!

I agree!

quote: And Russia - we do not know how many tanks do they have, but analitycs say that over 20.000

Well, my sources estimate the number of Russian tanks at 16,800 in year 2000 and at 19,000 in year 1996.

	02-02-2003 02:23									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Luk Mostly, the old tanks in clash with modern tanks have no chance to win even if ratio would be 10:1 or higher!!!!

so what? tanks don't have to fight other tanks.
even old ones can blast through defences, destroy houses, blow up factories or fuel and weapons deposits or -as in china's case- squash several hundred demonstrators by just running over them

	03-02-2003 21:22									#285
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Well put Sabrewolf. And besides, this scenario should be made for the Pakistani player that wants to overrun India, and vice versa... every piece of equipment counts!!! Even for holding down the populace.

I also wanted to suggest a special unit for this scenario:

The suicide bomber.

Treated a missile unit, incredibly cheap (1 per turn), incredibly low attack (say, 2) and 1 defense. Maybe with worker functions, as well?

Palestine is not the only "country" to use suicide bomber attacks... the Tamils of Sri Lanka are the real masters of it.

BTW, I sincerely hope that the Tamil-Sri Lanka conflict will be represented in this scenario... it's fascinating, and one to watch.

How about the Child Soldier as a special unit? A less effective guerilla maybe?

	03-02-2003 23:26									#286
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for some people suicide bombers are terrorists, for others freedom fighters. if you consider the latter, we've got the guerilla unit...

the suicide bomber is historically unimportant. an average attack might kill 1-2 people (most bombers get shot before they blow anyone else up). foot units in civ3 represent several thousand men, tanks will be something of the size of a brigate, planes a squad. only ships is really just 1 reallife-unit (altough transporting settlers would take more than 1 ship )
so imho, it's not worth to add into the game.

	03-02-2003 23:35									#287
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Yes, but the presence of suicide bombers makes internal defense that much sharper... in other words, attacking repeatedly with suicide bombers a city would make the city's defenders Elite eventually, à la Israel.

On the other hand, suicide bombers have been effective elsewhere, as in Sri Lanka, and they can wreak havok on settlements, etc.

	04-02-2003 01:25									#288
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to make a unit elite, you'd need someone attacking. cruise missiles cannot be defended against (except with those special city improvements)

if each bomber would be as organised and well equipped as timothy McVeigh was, it would be an game-relevant issue.

but now i'll stop, this thread is once again off topic

JW: i just found out how young you are. i'm impressed by your geographical, historical, cultural and political knowledge

	13-02-2003 10:17									#289
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JW, can we expect this scenario to be finished at some point in the not-to-distant future?

	13-02-2003 20:06									#290
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Another highly cynical unit that should be in this scenario, as it is in use throughout much of the "developing"/"third" world...

The Child Slave Solider.

Children, conscripted into slavery and forced to fight by rebel and government-backed guerilla forces, can be found all throughout Africa, as well as in certain areas of Southeast Asia, Columbia and some other Andean countries.

As they are quite vicious but obviously not as skilled as a more well-honed, well-trained guerilla unit, I would suggest stats such as 7/4/1. Perhaps these too could have some worker functions, but not all of them. Only clear forest/jungle, and maybe build outpost.

	13-02-2003 22:36									#291
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This is going to be some disturbing scenario, isn't it?

I think the Child Slave Soldier should be a bit weaker than the Guerilla. Or you could boost the Guerilla's power and give the Guerilla stats to the Child Slave Soldier. It should also be cheaper and be able to treat jungle terrain as roads.

	13-02-2003 22:41									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Azeem This is going to be some disturbing scenario, isn't it? I think the Child Slave Soldier should be a bit weaker than the Guerilla. Or you could boost the Guerilla's power and give the Guerilla stats to the Child Slave Soldier. It should also be cheaper and be able to treat jungle terrain as roads.

Well, the modern world is a bit disturbing...

...as for those two units, I think they should both be able to treat jungles as roads, and the guerilla should keep its stats... the child slave solider should have a rifleman's stats, perhaps. They are often surprisingly apt, and certainly ferocious, fighters, especially the Mai Mai of the Congo. These are the soldiers that, in many cases, grow up to be seasoned guerillas!

	13-02-2003 23:19									#293
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Hmm... There could be "unique" Child Soldier units such as the Nazi "Hitler Youth" (some took part in battle), the Chinese "Red Guards" (many were quite young and were extremely violent), the "Mai Mai" you mentioned, Japanese child soldiers (who were unfortunately brainwashed into fighting American forces in the invasion of Okinawa), etc.

	14-02-2003 07:17									#294
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Hmm I'm not too entranced with the idea of getting hate mail. There's no way that the Hitler youth is making its way into my scenario. Suicide bombers are probably not an option.

Another reason - WTC disaster is probably only equivalent to losing one pop point or so in city damage. Suicide bombings a la Palestine are not big enough on a civ scale to make a difference. Same with child soldiers. (Also for that one there's a graphic issue.)

Sorry that I'm slow. I am just a busy person. I want to finish before spring break so I'll have some dedicated playtesting.

	14-02-2003 19:56									#295
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Well, the Hitler Youth were not a real significant factor in Nazi history anyways. But I do think "youth" should be included, as well as suicide bombers, as they do make up a lot of the world's active combatants.

But I understand and respect your reasons for not doing so. Maybe some of the other cynics and I can get together and add some evil to your mod once it's completed.

(this is not meant as an attack on your work though... I think you're doing a very good job, and can't wait to actually play this thang...)

	19-02-2003 12:03									#296
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South American city placement - (this is the only continent where I'm not sure how accurate I was)

And I know that's bad grammar, but I'm sleepy.

Andean cities, from top down are: Arica, Lima, Antofagasta, Santiago, Talcahuano, Puerto Montt, and Punta Arenas.

Orange is British - Falkland Islands.

Mercosur cities, top to bottom, are Manaus (non coastal) Belem, Fortaleza, Recife, Salvador, Brasilia (non coastal) Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, Asuncion (non coastal) Porto Alegre, Cordoba (non coastal) Buenos Aires, Bahia Blanca, and Puerto Deseado.

Venezuelan coastal cities, west to east, are Quito, Cali, Cartagena, Caracas, and Georgetown. The non-coastal cities are Bogota and La Paz. (La Paz is the city that is further South)

Attachment: sa.jpg
This has been downloaded 62 time(s).

Last edited by Jaguar on 19-02-2003 at 12:15

	19-02-2003 12:13									#297
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this used to be a description of the picture, but since its on the wrong page, I've moved the original text of this message back one post.

	19-02-2003 19:23									#298
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can't you give the andean cities at least some food? mountains, desert, jungle and tundra... not the dream location.

give 'em some whales and other bonus & luxury resources

	19-02-2003 22:39									#299
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Yep. Cities will be given food trade and sheild bonuses to approximate their actual size. (Otherwise Oklahoma City would be larger than Moscow)

	19-02-2003 23:08									#300
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Hey, good work Jaguar Warrior! Nice job!

But why isn't Columbia represented? Why is it lumped in with Venezuela? It should probably be linked (Bogota) to the other latin american countries north of it.