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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:23
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The Steve Devine case - he was ruled eligible to play for the ABs - gets more and more bizarre:
quote:
Devine, 25, played for Australia in 1998, before stringent new rules designed to stop players for switching countries came into force two years ago.
The new regulation applies retroactively (sic) but New Zealand rugby chiefs asked the IRB to review Devine's case.
Under new eligibility laws implemented by the IRB in 2000, any player who has represented a country's test team, A team or in sevens, is unable to play for any other country.
According to the IRB, "the issue that required clarification was whether on the facts of this case the player's participation for an Australian sevens team on the one occasion in Dubai in 1998 meant that his eligibility was fixed for Australia."
And the game's world governing body insisted it had not ignored its own rules.
"This ruling is consistent with the rulings in previous similar cases involving players from Samoa, Australia, Canada and Hong Kong whereby in certain circumstances a player that played in a sevens match for one union prior to 2000, may be deemed eligible to play for another union," the IRB judgment said.
It added: "Having made enquires, the player (Devine) understood that participation in the Dubai tournament in 1998 would not affect his eligibility status which prior to the tournament he had committed to New Zealand."
And it maintained that he would not have participated if he had been aware that his one-off participation in a sevens tournament would have compromised his eligibility. |
1. So the IRB's law that says a 7s rep appearance counts as a senior rep appearance - meaning you can't represent another country - is retrospective (not retroactive, as the NZRFU website puts it);
2. Devine had already committed to go to NZ before he represented Australia at 7s;
3. But, if he'd known the 7s appearance for Australia would affect his chances of representing New Zealand, he would have pulled out of the Australian 7s team;
4. The ABs knew he was ineligible when they selected him but did so in the hope of seeking dispensation;
5. The IRB says the decision isn't inconsistent with its own laws, and, in fact, is compatible with other decisions.
I have two observations:
(a) So a player's intent enters the equation?
(b) Why have the rules in the first place?
I don't have a problem with Steve Devine furthering his career - good luck to him, and congrats on his selection. Havak and I have had numerous discussions about the notions of eligibility - having agreed to disagree on the birth/eligibility factor - but the IRB really has a knack for making life difficult - for itself, and, in my debates with Havak, for me.
Last edited by finbar on 06-11-2002 at 05:54
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:23
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even so I will have to pay a $20 cover charge to see it. |
That’s a tough break. I’m paying £10 to watch it in a London establishment myself – but that includes reserved table and a bar snack lunch. 
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I'm too upset to place a bet. I hope England beat the All Blacks, that way I wont be so disappointed about missing the game |
You don’t really mean that.
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In a word ... no way in the %#!@*^% world. |
A three monkeys impression Finbar? See no good in Jonno, hear no good of Jonno, speak no good of Jonno? 
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Thus, yet again, Eddie Jones calls for a review of the citing system. It's getting beyond a joke. |
It’s a serious situation, but you must get your own house in order first before you wag fingers excessively – remember the *cough* McCrae assault last year – six week ban in your off season. 13 punches in a combination would have you up at HQ defending a years ban in the UK. Gouging also warrants 12 months but the one player brought up on it last year got it over-turned on appeal – perhaps wrongly IMHO.
Let us not forget that Ireland take on the Wallabies too this weekend. Now I can’t bet on all the game sbecuase of the bizarre pot system we utilise whereby every time I picked the winner in the summer I lost because of the margins employed.
I therefore suggest a 21 point head start for England, France and Ireland. Sounds fair? 
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but the IRB really has a knack for making life difficult - for itself, and, in my debates with Havak, for me. |
Not at all Finbar. But this one is as ludicrous as you suggest. Sadly this kind of court room nonsense is infiltrating rugby, but Devine should consider himself a lucky man. And I now see no problem with Larkham hopping over the England – after all had he known he would be offered the chance to play under Clive Woodward and with Jonno before he played for the Wallabies he would obviously have pulled out of the Australian side when first selected.
That is only a tiny little bit more ludicrous than the Devine case. It’s the old story, you are inside the applicable regs, or you aren’t. What does it matter that your intent was to stay within them?
Personally it beats me why a Kiwi would want to be Aussie (Paul) or vice versa (Devine) – but then you antipodeans have a very different outlook to we Anglo’s.
Loved the retroactive mistake by the way. Deliciously pedantic wordsmithying.
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I think, though, that if England can't beat this AB side, they've got problems. |
Believe me you would be amazed what England can contrive to lose to!!! It holds us back badly, we can face up to the World champions one week and struggle to put away the Pumas the next (autumn series 2000).
We even lost by one point to Wales back in 1998.
Seriously I’m counting no chickens - despite Mitchells word games these lads are the form players from NPC from what I gather – all the missing lads being the out of form Canterbury All Blacks who lost the semi?
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Bernard Laporte, for example, is clearly using
this tests to throw new players in the arena as the RWC is nearing. |
As is Woodward – Woodman at prop, Simpson-Daniel out wide.
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Havak would say you are Australian. |
 Great line!
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And, indeed, he has said so. Nice to see him get something right. |
And I thought Tamerlins line was great.
In all fairness I seldom think of you in those terms – you are educated, articulate, reasoned – conforming to no stereotypes there at all. There is one of course – you see no merit in England and plenty in Australia (even if we are only talking rugby there!).
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
That’s a tough break. I’m paying £10 to watch it in a London establishment myself – but that includes reserved table and a bar snack lunch. |
Caligastia = US$20 = OZ$38
Havak = £10 = OZ$30
Mmmm. Looks like I'd be joining you, Havak.
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A three monkeys impression Finbar? See no good in Jonno, hear no good of Jonno, speak no good of Jonno? |
You forgot "think about him as little as possible".
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It’s a serious situation, but you must get your own house in order first before you wag fingers excessively – remember the *cough* McCrae assault last year – six week ban in your off season. |
I agree he should have got more.
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Let us not forget that Ireland take on the Wallabies too this weekend. |
I haven't forgotten. As I said earlier, with all the injuries, we can expect to some interesting names playing in interesting positions.
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Now I can’t bet on all the game sbecuase of the bizarre pot system we utilise whereby every time I picked the winner in the summer I lost because of the margins employed.
I therefore suggest a 21 point head start for England, France and Ireland. Sounds fair? |
In your dreams, bub.
As I also said earlier, I really have no idea how England and the ABs stack up against each other. You make reference later to John Mitchell's remark about form NPC players - well, I'd think there's a tad of a gap in standard between NPC and Test footy. You really should beat them. I suppose, if pushed, given the AB team, given where the match is being played, I'd give the ABs 7 1/2 points start.
France -v- Boks. It really depends on which game the Boks take onto the field. I'd, again, probably give the Boks 7 1/2 points start.
Wallabies -v- Ireland. I'd like to know the make up of the Wallaby team, but Keith Wood's missing, so I'd probably give the Irish 9 1/2 points start.
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Not at all Finbar. But this one is as ludicrous as you suggest. Sadly this kind of court room nonsense is infiltrating rugby, but Devine should consider himself a lucky man. And I now see no problem with Larkham hopping over the England – after all had he known he would be offered the chance to play under Clive Woodward and with Jonno before he played for the Wallabies he would obviously have pulled out of the Australian side when first selected. |
That's the logical conclusion to the IRB's thinking. It's madness.
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Personally it beats me why a Kiwi would want to be Aussie (Paul) or vice versa (Devine) – but then you antipodeans have a very different outlook to we Anglo’s. |
Steve Devine obviously wanted to lose two hours out of his life. (That's a very obscure gag. You might have to think about it)
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Loved the retroactive mistake by the way. Deliciously pedantic wordsmithying. |
What's he doing with a bloody dictionary beside his bloody computer anyway? Just because I've got two beside mine.
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Seriously I’m counting no chickens - despite Mitchells word games these lads are the form players from NPC from what I gather – all the missing lads being the out of form Canterbury All Blacks who lost the semi? |
I made my case earlier in the post. Good on him for giving the next tier of players a crack at the big time but it tends to make the result a tad meaningless in the real scheme of things.
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In all fairness I seldom think of you in those terms – you are educated, articulate, reasoned – conforming to no stereotypes there at all. |
Mmmmm. Trouble is, I don't qualify as an Italian stereotype either. 
Last edited by finbar on 06-11-2002 at 16:19
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:23
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I found Tamerlin's bets and prognosis of the future winner so good that I will place the same bets on England and France (10 gold each). I don't think we should have a margin for these matches.
For Ireland/Australia, well, we can bet but I think a margin in favour of Australia would be needed, whatever problems the Wallabies may have, something like 7 1/2 for instance.
It will be interesting to see Castaignede back as a center, particularly considering he will probably play after Traille, who should give him a few very good balls or openings, unless Gelez kicks them all.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Guys if you look at the history between the teams and the relative world ranking points there is simply no way NZ get the points head start in the spread. England should.
And yes I know it defeats Finbars object of getting someone to bet on the ABs but it's still the logic we used earlier in the summer? |
Talk about a reality check! You've been telling us for months about the strength of the England/Twickers nexus, now it has suddenly vanished.
Our margins have always been calculated on a number of things but the major contributing factors have been recent form, where the game is played and make up of the teams. History and rankings have had little impact on margins because they are what they are - history. The England -v- AB history, in particular, can be discarded because their last match was 3 years ago. And rugby rankings, as has been noted any number of times, are as flawed as Test cricket rankings - for example, if Australia loses the Ashes series to England, South Africa becomes the top-ranked cricket nation yet they were destroyed by Australia within the last 12 months. Statistical rankings of sporting teams should be treated with the contempt they deserve.
But back to the point. England -v- ABs.
1. It's played at Twickers.
2. The England players are mid-season and match-fit. Some of the ABs played in the NPC finals a couple of weeks ago.
3. The AB team for the match is, like it not, a second-string outfit.
4. You've told us how strong the England pack is - the second row, in particular. 
5. You've told us you have a world-class 5/8.
6. You've told us Austin Healy earns a place in a world team.
7. Et cetera.
There's no way in the world England could have a points start. Unless, of course, England are a pretty ordinary team.
Last edited by finbar on 07-11-2002 at 04:32
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06-11-2002 05:26
Someone would have to bet on the ABs. Even I would bet on England in a straight win/lose bet. I would also bet on France in a straight win/lose bet. Is anyone going to bet on South Africa?
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