19-10-2002 01:58									#91
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whoa , It seems that I've arrived too late.

	19-10-2002 01:59									#92
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According to Revelations, No man made government is supposed to stand. Government is by nature flawed because it is by man.

Making arguements that one form of government or another is more aligned to Christian principles is flawed as until the 2nd coming no one really knows what Christ's government would be like.

	19-10-2002 02:00									#93
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Charity was a misnomer, ya got me.
I suppose I view supporting Communism rather than capitalism as an act of charity itself as I'm supporting the common good, that is, the humanity as a whole, rather than my own individual interests.
I'm sure if I had no interest in helping out other people, I would make a fine capitalist.

BTW, I still want you to join us Dino, at least take it under consideration.

	19-10-2002 02:01									#94
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That's why I was amused about the talk about how Christian communism is.

	19-10-2002 02:02									#95
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Ogie, just because all governments in this world are destined to fall one day doesn't mean we should give up and support one that is based one unchristian principles, when we can just as easily, if we have the strength as christians at least, support one based on christian principles.

	19-10-2002 02:03									#96
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LOL Dino.

Psst... Go ahead join. We caps need a mole.

	19-10-2002 02:05									#97
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Capitalism is indeed morally wrong. A system in which a bunch of capitalists can tell workers what to do because they own the means of production is morally wrong for precisely the same reason why a statist system where the state can tell its workers what to do because it owns the means of production is morally wrong; both systems ultimately deny people their liberty.

The corporation, for instance, is an incredibly authoritarian, anti-democratic organization. These organizations are strictly hierarchial, orders going top-down. If they called themselves states instead of private businesses, they would universally be considered totalitarian.

	19-10-2002 02:05									#98
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Capitalism must be regulated, otherwise it descends into chaos and violence. As for the morality of capitalism, I think that can only be measured by the collective morality of those who participate in capitalist systems. In any case, capitalism is far more moral than the alternative - legalised theft. Capitalism is not perfect, but its the best humankind can manage right now. In a few thousand years when our collective sense of morality has evolved to higher levels, things will seem a lot less capitalist. But that will only be because we will choose to co-operate with each other, not because we forced each other to.

Competition is good, but co-operation is better.

	19-10-2002 02:08									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Capitalism is indeed morally wrong. A system in which a bunch of capitalists can tell workers what to do because they own the means of production is morally wrong

They can quit and go soemwhere else to work if they don't like it.

	19-10-2002 02:09									#100
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Monk,

We are mixing and matching. Gov's are not eco systems.

Capitalism is not necessarily a governmental system.

OTOH communism is both an economic and governmental system. And whilst capitalism may be akin to the lenders Jesus threw out of the temple, communism is very explicit in that the precepts stated that the state first. Organized religion the opiate of the masses and all that drivel. I would naturally assume that goes against "Have no other Gods before me".

Of the two Jesus threw the money lenders out. God eradicated empires for having graven images. You decide which one He was more pissed off about.

But hey I'm just human (flaws and all) what do I know in comparison to the Almighty.

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 19-10-2002 at 02:17

	19-10-2002 02:16									#101
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Oggie- Communism is no more inherently a governmental than capitalism. For example, the United States is Democratic and Capitalist. It could just as easily be Democratic and Communism. That is, democratic with a Communist system of distribution of wealth in place.
You have a valid point that in Communist despotisms have typically shunned religion, and in many cases the old religions were replaced with worship of the state. In fact Marx himself hasn't had too many good things to say about religion.
But the fact remains there is nothing intristically atheist about the economic system of Communism. In fact, on the contrary, a system of sharing and brotherhood is much more in sync with Christ's teachings than the system that capitalism creates, with it's greed, exploitation, violence, swallowing up the weak, and so forth. So we can support a system that mandates, unchristian teachings, such a capitalism, or one that mandates a system closely in sync with the teachings of the lord.
I know which one I will support, and I highly urge you to do the same, Oggie.

	19-10-2002 02:18									#102
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quote: They can quit and go soemwhere else to work if they don't like it.

People can immigrate to other states if they don't like it.

	19-10-2002 02:19									#103
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No system is inherently wrong and evil, AFAIK, it all just depends on the application.

Capitalism may be good or evil in certain situations, but so may communism.

	19-10-2002 02:19									#104
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Ramo makes an excellent point that Corporations, by their intristic nature are totalitarian and anti-democratic.
They are secretive, they have no accountability, they are built on a hierarchy system where only the most machiavellian survive usually. There is no room for demoracy in the corporate world. So to that degree, it can be easily argued that corporations are in fact, intristically immoral.

	19-10-2002 02:21									#105
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Loinburger: So true...

	19-10-2002 02:23									#106
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Go to sleep for two hours and two pages of thread to come back to. Bah!

I love some of the comments, unless I'm an anthropologist, unless I'm two million years old. Ming, I take you're a creationist then? Mankind's been on this planet for 3 million years. As for the other comments, we have this really fascinating field of study known as ... archeology. Y'all should check it out some time, you learn interesting things like how people didn't always live like you do.

You see, sadly for you, Marxism isn't founded on some ideas in some old krumudgeon's head, like say, Libertarianism is. Marx and Engles actually spent decades studying economics, anthropolgy, archeology, evolution, chemistry, and so. If you look through Engles notes, The Dialectics of Nature, you will see the first exposition on Chaos theory, a theory which didn't even begin to be forumlated by the mainstream scientific community for another hundred years. Many of Marx and Engles writings are standards in sciology, anthropology, and archeology.

So when we commies talk about human nature, and how human societies have evolved, we aren't just talking out of our collective asses. We actually know what we're talking about.

You can talk all about how greed is normal under all conditions, but for the most part pre-civilized society, food was rather plentiful. Greed is meaningless in a society where if you want another apple, all you have to do is pick it. It is not until the development of agricultre that you begin to see hoarding, that's not that long ago in terms of human history, a blink of an eye.

	19-10-2002 02:24									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo People can immigrate to other states if they don't like it.

Now you are just being pedantic. The employees freely enter into labor contracts. If they don't like the terms of the contract, they are under no obligation to accept.

	19-10-2002 02:27									#108
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quote: Greed is meaningless in a society where if you want another apple, all you have to do is pick it.

The lack of greed depends on a society with plentiful resources. With scarce resources, greed manifests itself in amazing numbers.

	19-10-2002 02:30									#109
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Now you are just being pedantic. The employees freely enter into labor contracts. If they don't like the terms of the contract, they are under no obligation to accept.

Just as if a criminal were to put a gun to a man's head and tell him to give him his wallet or get shot? Clearly, the man has a choice to keep his money here, and he is also free to get shot.
Just as it is in the world of capitalism, if someone doesn't like working for 5.15 in a local dairy queen, they are free to leave just exactly as you say, but they are also free to perish or their children are free to perish if they do so.

	19-10-2002 02:33									#110
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quote: Now you are just being pedantic. The employees freely enter into labor contracts. If they don't like the terms of the contract, they are under no obligation to accept.

People are obligated to accept at least one employer's contract. Otherwise they starve. Just like people are obligated to accept at least one state's rule.

	19-10-2002 02:33									#111
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Neither our species (250,000 years) nor even our genus Homo ( 2.4 million years) has been around 3 million years.

	19-10-2002 02:34									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Greed is meaningless in a society where if you want another apple, all you have to do is pick it. The lack of greed depends on a society with plentiful resources. With scarce resources, greed manifests itself in amazing numbers.

That's one my of points!

In a society of abundence (however that is defined, as societies have evolved, our needs have grown), greed is not only pointless, it can be couter-productive.

The big problem with the greed argument is that it pretends that greed is the only or chief motivator in human existence. Are you greedy all day? In your relations with other people, are you thinking about how you can take everything? Of course, you can redfine greed into simple want, but want isn't greed any more than love means you're a stalker.

	19-10-2002 02:36									#113
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So when we commies talk about human nature, and how human societies have evolved, we aren't just talking out of our collective asses. We actually know what we're talking about. You can talk all about how greed is normal under all conditions, but for the most part pre-civilized society, food was rather plentiful. Greed is meaningless in a society where if you want another apple, all you have to do is pick it. It is not until the development of agricultre that you begin to see hoarding, that's not that long ago in terms of human history, a blink of an eye.

Your not serious are you? Scarcity was everything. Why was agriculature invented in the first place? In order to solve the starvation issues and survive the winters. Greed is a survival instinct firstly. Those with food survived.

Greed becomes later on a means of establishing oneself in the community and giving oneself a false sense of immortality later on.

Greed is an integral part of human nature. Not pretty but it is.

	19-10-2002 02:36									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo People are obligated to accept at least one employer's contract.

I can speak from personal experience that isn't true Ramo.

Edit: I miss read your post.

My new response is, "What's wrong with that?"

	19-10-2002 02:37									#115
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Oggie- Communism is no more inherently a governmental than capitalism.

Other than communisim requiring an order or 2 of manigtude more goverment force, regulation, and coercion to exist?

	19-10-2002 02:38									#116
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quote: That's one my of points! In a society of abundence (however that is defined, as societies have evolved, our needs have grown), greed is not only pointless, it can be couter-productive.

But your point is flawed. There ISN'T a society of abundance and there never will in our lifetimes. Therefor to talk about it assuming it will happen is silly.

quote: The big problem with the greed argument is that it pretends that greed is the only or chief motivator in human existence. Are you greedy all day? In your relations with other people, are you thinking about how you can take everything? Of course, you can redfine greed into simple want, but want isn't greed any more than love means you're a stalker.

Actually every relation with another person involves a cost-benefit analysis, and people wish for the most greedy outcome. Greed doesn't have to apply JUST to money, but can include greed of good feeling.

quote: People are obligated to accept at least one employer's contract.

When there are hundreds of employer's offers to accept, I don't feel that that is immoral in any way.

	19-10-2002 02:39									#117
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DinoD- It is for the vast majority of people, the vast majority of the time.

	19-10-2002 02:41									#118
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I missread Ramo's post, ms. Read my new response.

	19-10-2002 02:42									#119
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See my previous post then.

	19-10-2002 02:42									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo People are obligated to accept at least one employer's contract.

I'm working for myself at the moment. People pay good money for semi-professional landscaping.