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NeOmega
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Play Pentagenesis Beta!
Feb 2002
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
The corporation, for instance, is an incredibly authoritarian, anti-democratic organization. These organizations are strictly hierarchial, orders going top-down. If they called themselves states instead of private businesses, they would universally be considered totalitarian. |
WHo cares? They aren't taking money from people to meet their own social agendas, or spread their religion. All corporations do is get the best quality to the costumer at the lowest price. Who cares how the corporation is run? There is no force behind a corporation. Governements use the barrel of a gun, and nothing more. Corporations use incentives, nothing more.
quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
But the fact remains there is nothing intristically atheist about the economic system of Communism. In fact, on the contrary, a system of sharing and brotherhood is much more in sync with Christ's teachings than the system that capitalism creates, with it's greed, exploitation, violence, swallowing up the weak, and so forth.
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There is nothing about capitalism which means it has to be imperialist, exploitive or violent. Just because current American "capitalism" is, doesn't mean that's the way it has to be. Capitalism is how most societies have always functioned, even with the barter system. It is the natural way of mankind. It is a way to share without being the one doing all the work.
quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
They are secretive, they have no accountability, they are built on a hierarchy system where only
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They have accountability to the consumer and to the stockholders.
quote:
Originally posted by Chegitz Guevera
So when we commies talk about human nature, and how human societies have evolved, we aren't just talking out of our collective asses. We actually know what we're talking about.
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Really, then how come every time one of your ideals get put into practice it becomes a brutal tyranny? Because Communists are control freaks. They think they know how the world works, as you so boldly just stated, and anybody who doesn't fall in line.... KGB time.
What about Adam Smith? Frederic Bastiat? The latest Nobel Economics winner was an economic Libertarian.
quote:
Originally posted by Chegitz Guevera
You can talk all about how greed is normal under all conditions, but for the most part pre-civilized society, food was rather plentiful.
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What an ignorant comment. That's why the mammoths were followed across the Behring straight. People loved the cold heather. Fact is, finding food in "pre-civilized" society was the daily focus of most peoples.
Your communism has been tried, and time and time again, it has failed. Marx wrote a very convincing argument. But real world application will never work.
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Capt Dizle
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I think there is a problem with how much influence corporate profits have on elections. Too much.
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NeOmega
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Play Pentagenesis Beta!
Feb 2002
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
In most cases, to survive one must give up your liberty to an employer... I see that as fundamentally unjust.
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It's only eight hours a day and you don't have to. You can open a hotdog stand. You can open a janitorial service, floor waxing business, junk removal business, land scaping, air duct cleaning, newspaper stand, sell Amway, Avon or Mary Kay, carpet cleaning........
Me, I'd rather work for an employer, and give up my Liberty, than do their job of selling their product, or risking their money on some un-glamorous undertaking, like septic pumping, or garbage removal. Capitalism is how we get people to do these jobs.
Every Communist I have ever met doesn't believe they should be in the dirt working. That job is for some other "equal". No, every communist wants to be a lawyer, or a doctor, a politician or an "artist", Perhaps a factory 9-5er.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:23
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quote:
It's only eight hours a day and you don't have to. You can open a hotdog stand. You can open a janitorial service, floor waxing business, junk removal business, land scaping, air duct cleaning, newspaper stand, sell Amway, Avon or Mary Kay, carpet cleaning........ |
Yep, one can do a number of things to survive without submitting to the authority of others. And I absolutely encourage that. I think that's how all jobs should be.
But the key word there is survive. One wouldn't be able to survive very well on jobs such as these.
quote:
Me, I'd rather work for an employer, and give up my Liberty, than do their job of selling their product, or risking their money on some un-glamorous undertaking, like septic pumping, or garbage removal. |
That's nice. But I'd prefer not to give up my liberty, thanks. 
quote:
Capitalism is how we get people to do these jobs. |
I don't recall socialist societies such as Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War having problems with filling up jobs you'd consider to be inferior...
quote:
Every Communist I have ever met doesn't believe they should be in the dirt working. That job is for some other "equal". No, every communist wants to be a lawyer, or a doctor, a politician or an "artist", Perhaps a factory 9-5er. |
Not that I see this as very relevant, but FYI I'm an anarchist, not a communist.
And no, I don't want to "be in the dirt working" (whatever that means). I'd prefer to be a physicist. That's certainly not something that brings in tons of money, nor is particularly glamerous, but is something I think I'd enjoy. I don't see why I should be obligated to do a job which you deem "lower" just because I'm a socialist.
quote:
Then who is the guilty one? The Government, who has the ABSOLUTE authority of Life and death, and can choose not to accept the "bribe" of the corporation, or the corporation, who offers the bribe? |
I don't see the distinction. Corporations make up nothing more than another arm of the government.
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NeOmega
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Play Pentagenesis Beta!
Feb 2002
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
But the key word there is survive. One wouldn't be able to survive very well on jobs such as these.
>>>businesses, they could get very wealthy.
That's nice. But I'd prefer not to give up my liberty, thanks.
>>>Are you rich enough to have that option? Not many are.
I don't recall socialist societies such as Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War having problems with filling up jobs you'd consider to be inferior...
>>>I don't consider any jobs inferior.
Not that I see this as very relevant, but FYI I'm an anarchist, not a communist.
>>>B.S. An anarchist would find without government the barter system, ie CAPITALISM, would find itself a home very nicely. You are what one would call a communo-anarchist.
And no, I don't want to "be in the dirt working" (whatever that means). I'd prefer to be a physicist. That's certainly not something that brings in tons of money, nor is particularly glamerous, but is something I think I'd enjoy. I don't see why I should be obligated to do a job which you deem "lower" just because I'm a socialist.
>>>Socialism is poor at addressing the problem of essential servises. A septic pumper gets paid the same as a restaraunt server. In capitalism, a septic pumper makes roughly 3 or 4 tmes more, even though both can be done by anyone.
Socialism has no septic pumpers.
I don't see the distinction. Corporations make up nothing more than another arm of the government.
>>>Another Arm. They aren't constitutionally another arm. Why have we allowed it? Answer in short, Political Parties.
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:23
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The fundamental flaw with capitalism is that it assumes everyone is created equally (not talking equal rights here, but equal talent/ability). Not everyone is born with, taught, or developes the abilities to function equally, and as such the playing field is weighted heavily. The only thing 'equal' about people is that everyone produces to the extent they consume. You get from a person what is put into that person. I know this isn't a popular idea, because it invalidates any claims to 'I'm better than you'. But it's how we function.
Understanding this can only lead to a socialistic distribution of goods. Otherwise people are being rewarded or punished for things outside their control. This doesn't mean that there is can be no incentive. Survival instincts are designed just for that, survival. Once that is taken care of, we provide our own motivations as a society. It's here were capitalism fails again, teaching that the only motivation, or at least the most significant, is the collection of 'stuff'. Physical possessions are not the only thing of value in life, but capitalism assumes it is.
The failings of socialism have been pointed out quite enough on this thread already. It just won't work in it's pure form with the mentality of the average human. We're left with 2 flawed systems which each have their good points... the only intelligent thing is to combine them.
That's been done to some extent; welfare, disability, public works, government regulation of utilities, and public schools (which really need work) are all socialistic programs, added to a capitalistic base. We are working our way to a functional socialism, but it's still a long way off.
My bet... once we can map out the human brain, learn that it really is just an organic computer working with what it's given to work with, everyone will finally be viewed as equal, at least by anyone who is intellectually honest. Then we can get past all the 'but I deserve more' bull. Either that or some capitalist will take advantage of our wiring to set up a matrix like application, getting us to pay for a life long illusion, while our bodies are elsewere doing his bidding.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:23
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quote:
why anti-capitalist advocates have computers, own cars, work for corporations, etc.? |
Why shouldn't we? The world is capitalistic. It isn't practical to divorce ourselves from the system.
quote:
We can take Ramo as an example. His chosen profession has a very high likelyhood of him working for the government. I find that strange. |
 That's true.
I'd prefer working at a private university over working for a state university or a government research lab. One of these days we might see a faculty-owned university, you never know.
quote:
businesses, they could get very wealthy. |
Yes... And most of those businesses aren't very lucrative.
quote:
B.S. An anarchist would find without government the barter system, ie CAPITALISM, would find itself a home very nicely. |
That shows a huge amount of ignorance regarding what anarchism is. First off, anarchism is a rejection of authority and hierarchy, which is precisely what capitalism is.
quote:
You are what one would call a communo-anarchist. |
Actually, I'd be roughly classified as an individulist anarcho-syndicalist. Anarcho-communists are more statist than I prefer.
quote:
Socialism is poor at addressing the problem of essential servises. |
No... Maybe certain kinds of socialism (for instance, communism).
quote:
A septic pumper gets paid the same as a restaraunt server. |
Huh? Again, you reveal your ignorance wrt anarchism.
quote:
Another Arm. They aren't constitutionally another arm. |
Never said they were.
quote:
Why have we allowed it? |
Capitalism. Large wealth disparities lead to government abuse to preserve these disparities.
quote:
Answer in short, Political Parties. |
Our government whored ourselves to businesses before political parties started. Note Hamilton's mercantilist and Southerners' pro-slavery policies, for instance.
quote:
Because their entire philosophy is all for me and nothing for you, even though they spout equality. |
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Zero
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Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
Well if that were true Calc, that would be an indictment of the entire taxation system as we know it! After all, what are taxes, but pooling together wealth for the various collective good.
In any event, reducing state-sponsered christian principles to "extortion" or even "evil" simply because it is sponsored by the state is a rather strange premise.
While it is true that sharing would be, to a degree, "mandated" (ooooh, such a spooky word) it doesn't change the fact that this mandated sharing would take place in a system built on christian principles. Certainly it would be better to support a system where christan values are virtually "mandated" rather than a system where unchristan values are virtually "mandated", no?
I politely ask that you join us commies today Dino D, and throw off the shackles of sinful capitalism. |
you pay taxes because as christians you are to abide by the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with christian beliefs. I said as christians you must do charity out of freewill not as a requirement, but if law requires it there no need to fight over it. In addition, tax is not communistic. It is based off your salary and taxed money is used for public which you are part of.
BTW Lets leave religion outta this.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:23
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quote:
That statement right there shows you know nothing about the real world or capitalism. Take any one of these businesses, put your soul into it, and you WILL retire a millionaire. |
Sorry, but I don't know too many millionare hotdog stand operators. Perhaps you can point them out.
quote:
Because you are a hippocrite. |
You would be a jack ass. Where exactly the hypocrisy?
quote:
What have you done to move America towards Anarchy beside moan and b****? If you truly believe in it, make it happen. |
How would not using computers possibly move American an inch towards anarchism? Frankly, the idea that it could is totally idiotic.
[qote]And peacefully, because once one life is shed for your vision of utopia, the vision is ruined, utopia cannot have murder.[/quote]
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NeOmega
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Play Pentagenesis Beta!
Feb 2002
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Sorry, but I don't know too many millionare hotdog stand operators. Perhaps you can point them out.
>>>I wonder how the Frankfurter's chain started? Or any other chain of hot dog stands. I wonder if a hot dog stand owner, instead of putting his kids through college, instead franchised, how incredibly successful he would be by the time he was 65?
You would be a jack ass.
>>>I don't think it was me who resorted to name calling you names out of an inability to defend my point of view. Unless, of course, you are suggesting I am the one donkey in the world who has learned to communicate in the English language.
Where exactly the hypocrisy?
How would not using computers possibly move American an inch towards anarchism? Frankly, the idea that it could is totally idiotic.
>>>Here is your hypocrisy, you want anarchy, but you want everyone else to start first. Get off your computer, get rid off all your goods acquired through capitalism, go find yourself a commune, and become an Anarchist. Fact is, you know deep down your "anarchy" is just as "idiotic"
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alofatti
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Hello people.
I wasnīt able to read the whole thread since it seems to grow fastar that i am able to read...
Well, anyway, I have captured some excerpts that I wanted to discuss with you.
"Greed is part of the human nature"
Is there a real fact of this? Could we be able to build communities of selfish people? And suppose the answer is truly positive, shouldnīt we strive to change it? The human being has a very compelling quality over other life beings: it's knowledge come most from itīs own experience rather than itīs genetic memory (i.e., instincts). Why canīt we change this supposed "selfishness" in human beings with experience rather that estimulate it?
I donīt know, I find that using the expression "Greed is part of the human nature" is just a simplistic answer for a difficult problem.
My second excerpt is, how could we say, a little bit less "abstract".
"Capitalism has shown to be the best way of organizing societes, it has promoted the biggest increase in quality of life" (or something like that).
Well, I donīt know. As a matter of fact, I donīt live in USA, Canada or Europe. I live in a simple third world country which earned, up until last year, the status of being "the predilect child of the IMF", then all hell break loose.
In these 20 years we tried real hard to implement a pure capitalistic system. We privatized everything, we opened our trade barriers and deregulated everything.
In these 20 years, the GNP increased in a 7 % while in the 20 years before that it increased 70 %. Now the country is submerged in a complete recession that has consumed 21% of the GNP in four years, left 25% of people unemployed and with 57 % of people under the line of poverty, growing in a propotion of something like 2 % per month.
What are you talking me about?? Could you really say that capitalism has really proven itself?
Some people attack the communism because they argue that it does induce state-corruption. And with neoliberalism? There canīt be much state-corruption because there shouldnīt be, under its doctrines, a big state. Instead, what we will get is corporate-corruption.
I am sorry but I canīt buy this bull**** anymore. I canīt stand capitalism anymore, I want to try something different!
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Admiral PJ
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Southeast England , UK
Dec 2000
time: 05:23
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I agree Sava,
the only way out of the current economic deathtrap is for a liberal socialist government, with true democracies.
Another problem the americans have is their failed political system, as demonstrated by the Bush election which can barely be called an election.
The constitution of the USA has some useful points though, but it needs to be redone and its points made a lot clearer and less generalised.. IE a right to bear arms is used by rightwing gun fanatics to sell guns for millions whereupon they end up in the hands of schoolchildren who kill each other.
The main problem is the world is still fragmented, with minority parties / groups greed spoiling the vast majority of the planet.. this can be solved by having a unified world government, with national governments subserviant to this, but power still shared.
This would end most millitary conflict and terrorsism, with every earth citizen equal and treated with equal rights. Hunger would be abolished as the starving would be part of the world nation and the rich west would be obliged to feed them.
The first step is to strictly regulate trade and companies, perhaps under a global Industry regulation authority.
See you in paradise 
As to americas terrorist problems, I don't think its as simple as someone hates the US. In some ways you would think there would be more terrorism on the US from foreign sources, as its been the main superpower so long, but no one will really know the reasons and how it could have been stoppped till 20 years time when this episode has finished.
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Capt Dizle
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
There is no right or wrong in this merely opinion. If you subscribe to the opinion that I hold that man is inherently driven by base instincts that amongst these are a need for survival. The survival instinct carries with it a need for greed and want.
This is a base instinct clearly observable in small developing children, as well as other primates.
Yes these desires can be held in check by a thin veneer of civilization but ultimately just as every other base instinct the most instinctual become the stongest drivers (after all the internet prolly wouldn't be here if not for the porn).
Can we hope for a better human nature, certainly. Are we anywhere close to demonstrating that? No way IMHO. As a consequence any system of government economics that asks the individual to put first and foremost the greater good and the potential sacrifice of the "me", I think is destined to fail.
I know many have used the arguement before to say why Communism will always fail. Point is it just comes down to what you believe human nature is. Some are young idealists full of book learning who think people have an inherent goodness. Other like me are jaded old farts who think people in general are in it all for themselves. Neither are prolly right and neither can be proven. But as long as people continue to amaze me with their uncanny ability to be shmucks, I'll stick to my position that folks are normally looking out for number 1. |
Ogie, eloquently written and right on spot. Do you write for a living?
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19-10-2002 02:52
I fell from one amazement in another in this thread. I didn't know there were that many people with warped views on reality.
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